Dynamic Pricing Tariffs

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: PV Feed In Tariff.

con747

Taken from another thread, " Looks like dynamic tariffs will be with us next year"

https://www.cru.ie/publications/28339/

NinjaTruncs

For the uneducated, what are the main points with dynamic pricing, will it be a good or bad thing for us?

I tend to charge my battery at night and sell most of what I produce back to the grid.

jkforde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122657414#Comment_122657414

good news if implemented fairly, and based on the CEG payment implementation, I'm moderately optimistic. would finally be able to utilise myenergi's dynamic price tracking feature, possibly?! 🤔

graememk

The people able to leverage the dynamic pricing will do very well.

Octopus in the UK seems to be the only one doing it over there. And there's different levels of dynamic-ness

the_amazing_raisin

Am I correct in saying the FIT will not be dynamic under the same contract? The paper only seemed to talk about importing electricity

jkforde

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658111#Comment_122658111

hmm, as solar PV generators, we both buy and sell in the market, dunno

con747

After reading Bord Gais, Electric Ireland's and the Electricity Association Of Ireland's response to the start date I'm not so sure if it will be next year but who knows.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658111#Comment_122658111

I suppose I should spin this out into its own thread.... Anyway

I've skimmed most of the paper.

What I understand is that there will be 3 factors,

Standing charge,

Base rate

Dynamic charge,

So the unit price (kWh) will be base rate + dynamic charge.

On the day ahead rate, there is a cap of €0.50/kWh. There is no price floor, can go negative. On SEMOpx https://www.semopx.com/

Suppliers over 200k customers have to have a dynamic plan before 1st Oct 2025.

The five suppliers are Bord
Gáis Energy, Electric Ireland, Energia, PrePay Power/Yuno and SSE Airtricity.

No mention of export.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658206#Comment_122658206

I guess they could do dynamic export by setting the base rate to 0, as in you can get the market rate at the time

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122658569#Comment_122658569

Yeah that would be fair,

Don't think it's included in the cru requirement so far.

A low base rate would be necessary to get the ones that are currently leveraging the EV plans though, at least at night anyway.

ECO_Mental

This is a good thing but I suspect it will only appeal to a small number people… like the people who frequent this forum 😎

eg people who have batteries, HPs and EV's and who actively manage their energy use. I am a fully electric house with an EV HP etc but I think to really get the benefit out of this then you will HAVE to use a battery…which I dont have at the moment. I really need to get myself a battery. This might be the catalyst for me to do it.

I hit Google Gemini and asked to see how they will communicate the dynamic price to people as I would hope that they would have some API or format that would allow you to get these day ahead prices in a format that you can use in Home Assistant and then you can come up with innovative automations to control you battery charge your EV set up alerts etc…

AI generated…

• Direct Communication: Suppliers must inform customers of the half-hourly Dynamic Unit Rates directly. This means they cannot simply refer customers to the SEMOpx website (where the raw DAM data is published). The prices communicated should already incorporate the price cap if the DAM price exceeds it. They also need to convert the prices from €/MWh to €/kWh.
• Timely Notification: This communication must occur no later than 2 PM (14:00) each day. This gives customers sufficient time to adjust their consumption patterns for the upcoming 48 half-hour periods (which begin at 11 PM that evening).
• Format: While not overly prescriptive, the CRU expects the pricing information to be clear and accessible. Suppliers can use numeric and graphical formats to present the half-hourly prices. It's also suggested they include the Base Unit Rate alongside the Dynamic Unit Rate to show the total unit price for each half-hour.
• Additional Channels (Expected but Not Mandatory): While the CRU requires suppliers to make dynamic pricing available on their website, they also expect them to go further. The document encourages suppliers to offer more user-friendly options like:
  • Daily Notifications: Sending the dynamic prices directly to customers via email, SMS, or push notifications through a mobile app.
  • Mobile Apps: Developing mobile applications that present the dynamic pricing information in an intuitive and visually appealing manner. Ideally, this would be integrated with smart home energy management systems.

The CRU emphasizes that suppliers should leverage their customer knowledge and expertise to develop the most effective communication strategies. The goal is to empower customers to make informed decisions about their energy usage in response to dynamic pricing.

graememk

If they don't get us on board.. there's no hope.

Although if it's beneficial to us, (ie on our pocket, people will move)

SD_DRACULA

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122659635#Comment_122659635

It will be utterly useless if the export part is not done right (for us) just buying cheap doesn't help me offset 😉

slave1

..and as we edge towards zero (or negative) FIT like of EDDI will be back on the buy list

ELM327

I'm perfectly willing to sign up for this, most of my import (like 99%+) is between 00;00 and 09;00 in the summer and 23;00 and 08;00 in winter. For a lot of that, pricing for supply companies is often negative or zero. As it stands, I can export at 4AM when the price is negative, or at 4PM during peak time, and get the same export price.

Peak pricing for import and peak pricing for export, needs to be done, along with dynamic and low/zero/negative pricing during the night.

dubrov

You don't want dynamic pricing if exporting, particularly solar.

When the sun is out in the middle of the day the price drops.

THese plans are for those who can adjust their import/export at will.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122661453#Comment_122661453

Yeah I thinking something similar, 20c export constant through the day is pretty good. You're only likely to miss out around peak times

JayBee66

I await with interest.

However, without "dynamic contracts" you are still beholden to the whim of your supplier.

I'd prefer to deal directly with the ESB. They can add a small service charge to the dynamic price so there is no standing charge. The ESB can then sell on to the supplier. Home energy suppliers should be for those who are not energy independent. I don't want to be with a supplier, decide they are not for me and have to pay over some of my profit to break the contract.

I am not keen on cycling my battery more than once a day so I won't be entertaining the idea of gaming the system to eek out a profit that will be needed to buy another battery once I've cycled the current one to death.

More than dynamic pricing, I look forward to solid state batteries and a massive increase in energy density. A relatively small standalone 500KW battery or EV with vehicle to home capability would hold all my winter needs. I'd probably go off grid, at that point.

Dr Robert

Does anyone know why our tariffs have such short ev windows? 4hours is seen as good but it's just ok.

The UK for example has 6hr cheap ev tariffs.

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122661993#Comment_122661993

I can't understand this thinking of minding the battery. Sweat the asset, isn't the whole point of having a battery for it to make you money?

Dr Robert

I was fairly conservative cycling my solar batteries when I got them first.

I've completely gone the other way now and I use at every opportunity. The technology will be way more advanced in 10 years or whenever the batteries keel over.

SD_DRACULA

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122662155#Comment_122662155

I was the same at the start but quickly changed my mind since the pinergy tariff 😂

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122661996#Comment_122661996

If you check that semopx site you will see why, price per MWh is almost 0 between 00:00 - 5:00 (at least during the week) so they are still technically shafting you at 5-8c a kwh if you think about it

893bet

It will be bad. It wil benefit the 10-20 percent that will have the ability to game the system and screw the other 80 percent.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122662242#Comment_122662242

I've always suspected the tariff we're given in a time period is just the average market rate plus some buffer for hedging and profit

So if the market rate is close to 0 then the EV rate is likely the same as the static profit margin they apply across the other time periods

In that case, you could just take that and add it to the market rates and that's probably around where the dynamic tariffs will land

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122661996#Comment_122661996

While 4 hours is not good, it's good enough for the vast majority of EV owners to keep their EV battery full. You can pull about 25kWh at 6-7kW over the 4 hours. I also top up my home storage batteries over that period too at 5kW speeds, so I get 20kWh into my 26kWh useable capacity. I'm a big domestic user with 2 EVs and a 15,000 units per year consumption.

If I can get most of my leccy during those 4 hours, then most other can too. Even the 3 hours with Pinergy is good enough at a stretch with a standard 12kVa supply, ideally with a 16kVa supply. I think our rates a little better than the UK, but I admit I don't know all their tariffs. I've just seen export rates on YT vids.

ECO_Mental

Dont know did any of you got this message yesterday but its the first time I got please use electricty…in peak times!!

If I was incentivised to use at this time yeah then no problem but telling me to use peak time prices I dont think so…these text mesage mean nothing but I suppose are they getting ready for dynamic pricing.

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122662244#Comment_122662244

At the minute you need a lot of automation to make best use of this, I guess you're looking at 0.05% benefitting and 99.95% getting screwed unless Inverter manufacturers make it pig easy to manage via software updated

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122679879#Comment_122679879

Solis are launching an update for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI2waLHoupE&t=2s

slave1

I saw that, think's it's sit on the fence time and see how it works in reality after this all goes Live, some time away!

newhouse87

Would this dynamic pricing make people rethink getting solar?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122662244#Comment_122662244

Hold on, no-one is being forced to dynamic tariffs, it's purely optional

It's like switching from a 24 hour tariff to a TOU one, the rate is effectively just the average of the market prices across that time period

So there's cheaper times and more expensive ones, same as there's always been

The only people being screwed are the ones who stick with the same supplier forever and let themselves pay more for the same electricity

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680701#Comment_122680701

I think it would encourage it, as well as encouraging battery installations. They complement each other quite well

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680716#Comment_122680716

Agreed, batteries and diverters will become very attractive again.

Between cars, house batteries, water tanks and heaters, there's about 120kwh of storage in our house. Can't wait for this.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680755#Comment_122680755

I think there were folks in Texas on dynamic tariffs without any batteries in that snowstorm a few years back. They famously ran up bills in the tens of thousands

You can do it without batteries and automation but it just seems like a lot of hassle. I don't see it working for well without at least a battery

bullit_dodger

Yeah, sadly no easy way to automate the Eddi via automation. Or is there?

(I've the bog standard one with no Wifi integration and don't have a MyEnergy Hub - any options for me?)

Course the automation could be me manually hitting it on boost when I know it's cheap, but that might be at 4am….. :-)

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680802#Comment_122680802

There is a myenergi integration that will allow you to to control the eddi, but it's at full power (boost)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680794#Comment_122680794

The CRU have a cap on the unit price in the document. And that was an exceptional case too where Texas grid came very close to failing completely. There was even a nuclear plant trip off because the cooling pumps froze.

I think it will increase the demand for storage but will see when the actual rates come out.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680916#Comment_122680916

Maybe if we buy the lad who made Energypal a years supply of coffee he'll make a dynamic pricing estimator

Should be fairly easy, get the DAM rates from SemPox for a few years and average it out over a 12 month period. Maybe add in standard deviation so you can see the 99% probability and 1% probability rates (theoretical max high and low)

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680916#Comment_122680916

In home assistant? All I can do with home assistant and the Eddie is change from Normal to stop and vice versa.

bullit_dodger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680960#Comment_122680960

But how does one communicate with it. I'm assuming you have a later model Eddi which has some kind of Wifi support?

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680971#Comment_122680971

Ya, newer wifi version.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680960#Comment_122680960

Bit of hoops to jump through but it's doable

https://community.home-assistant.io/t/myenergi-eddi-boost-from-home-assistant/426030

allinthehead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680994#Comment_122680994

Nice, thanks.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680971#Comment_122680971

If you have app control you can do it (via the myenergi hub.. which is just an esp32 inside the WiFi eddi)

the_amazing_raisin

Has anyone here tried downloading data from SEMOPox using a script? I'm thinking of putting together a python script to get a few years worth of data and try to figure out the potential unit costs

lhay

I'm interested in seeing how extortionate the incumbent suppliers tariffs will cost. Could be an opportunity for a new supplier to join the market. Norway seems to be the furthest ahead in this kind of market something like 75% of households are using spot tariffs.
Have they agreed on a maximum price cap?

I read about a Texas based company called Griddy that was supplying electricity at wholesale market cost + 10$ a month
They went bankrupt in early 2021 during a blizzard when some customers were given $11,000 energy bills.
Hopefully that happens here might give a much needed shakeup lol