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Dynamic Pricing Tariffs

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Comments

  • #32
    bullit_dodger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,766 ✭✭✭bullit_dodger


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680960#Comment_122680960

    But how does one communicate with it. I'm assuming you have a later model Eddi which has some kind of Wifi support?



  • #33
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,768 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680971#Comment_122680971

    Ya, newer wifi version.



  • #34
    graememk
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 7,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680960#Comment_122680960

    Bit of hoops to jump through but it's doable

    https://community.home-assistant.io/t/myenergi-eddi-boost-from-home-assistant/426030



  • #35
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,768 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680994#Comment_122680994

    Nice, thanks.



  • #36
    graememk
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 7,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122680971#Comment_122680971

    If you have app control you can do it (via the myenergi hub.. which is just an esp32 inside the WiFi eddi)



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  • #37
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 13,567 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Has anyone here tried downloading data from SEMOPox using a script? I'm thinking of putting together a python script to get a few years worth of data and try to figure out the potential unit costs

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • #38
    lhay
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 ✭lhay


    I'm interested in seeing how extortionate the incumbent suppliers tariffs will cost. Could be an opportunity for a new supplier to join the market. Norway seems to be the furthest ahead in this kind of market something like 75% of households are using spot tariffs.
    Have they agreed on a maximum price cap?

    I read about a Texas based company called Griddy that was supplying electricity at wholesale market cost + 10$ a month
    They went bankrupt in early 2021 during a blizzard when some customers were given $11,000 energy bills.
    Hopefully that happens here might give a much needed shakeup lol



  • #39
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,733 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    This thread is for discussing everything about flexible plans in Ireland

    Most of us have seen the paper from the CRU:

    https://cruie-live-96ca64acab2247eca8a850a7e54b-5b34f62.divio-media.com/documents/Dynamic_Electricity_Price_Tariffs_-_Decision_Paper_002.pdf

    Summary:

    The five suppliers are: Bord Gáis Energy, Electric Ireland, Energia, PrePay Power/Yuno and SSE Airtricity. These must offer a Dynamic Price
    Contract to customers by 1 October 2025

    Dynamic Price Contract :

    1. A Standing Charge – this is a fixed amount that is charged, regardless of energy
      consumption.
    2. A Base Unit Rate Charge – this is a unit rate that is set and charged for each unit of
      electricity consumption (This rate can be a flat rate or incorporate time of use rates).
    3. A Dynamic Unit Rate Charge – this is a unit rate that varies in each half-hour period of the
      day and is charged for each unit of electricity consumption.

    1 and 2 can be set by the provider

    "Make no mistake. The days of the internal combustion engine are definitely numbered" - Quentin Willson, 1997



  • #40
    con747
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,919 ✭✭✭✭con747


    A thread here on it.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058370649/dynamic-pricing-tariffs
    Post edited by graememk at

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  • #41
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,733 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123028060#Comment_123028060

    Indeed, but a bit cluttered. My intention was to make this a clean thread with all info directly at hand in the OP, then discussion below

    Post edited by graememk at

    "Make no mistake. The days of the internal combustion engine are definitely numbered" - Quentin Willson, 1997



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  • #42
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,733 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Here is the link to the day ahead pricing from SEMOpx

    https://www.semopx.com/market-data/market-results/

    Post edited by graememk at

    "Make no mistake. The days of the internal combustion engine are definitely numbered" - Quentin Willson, 1997



  • #43
    JayBee66
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 375 ✭✭JayBee66


    Is there going to be the possibility that the dynamic unit rate will go negative and possibly negate the base unit rate or will the dynamic rate only go to zero or not even that?

    Obviously, I like the idea of being able to purchase electricity for nothing. My future plans might include batteries and/or car with V2X and/or storage heaters instead of A2A heat pump. Zero or near zero electricity cost might influence what I do.

    I have €1500 of credit on my SSE account but factoring out the government payments, the FIT payments only constitute €100 of that credit so I need to be planning for a time when the government stops handing out free money.

    Post edited by graememk at


  • #44
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,733 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123028368#Comment_123028368

    Yes there is the possibility of the rate going negative. But looking at historical data, this hasn't really happened much in Ireland as we simply do not have enough renewables yet.

    In other markets more ahead of Ireland like the UK, the Netherlands and Norway, the price goes negative very regularly. In the Netherlands, the price goes negative nearly any time there is a sunny or windy day. There it is very lucrative to have a dynamic contract particularly if you can store negative priced electricity and then sell back to the grid when the price is positive again later on that day or the next day

    So unfortunately for the foreseeable: flexible contracts in Ireland are a damp squib

    Post edited by graememk at

    "Make no mistake. The days of the internal combustion engine are definitely numbered" - Quentin Willson, 1997



  • #45
    10-10-20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,114 ✭✭✭✭10-10-20


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123028368#Comment_123028368

    It has gone negative in the past. I pulled samples of data across the year between Feb 2023 to Feb 2024 and did an analysis on it. For 35 day samples over that period only one had negative EUR/MWh values, but they were nothing to be excited about.

    image.png

    The specific date was on the 20th of Sept 2023 where the overnight prices dipped to a low of -3 EUR/MWh.

    image.png

    The Winter season had the highest standard deviation, most likely because of the effect of higher periods of wind causing market fluctuation as it competed against gas/oil etc.

    Whether a negative value will be passed onto the end-user is the other question. At no point was negative pricing mentioned or implied in the initial documentation, but that's not to say that I don't think that it will, but it was just interesting to observe it's omission.

    Post edited by graememk at


  • #46
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,733 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Negative pricing will by definition be passed on to the end user, subject of course to the "2. Base Unit charge rate" top up added by the electricity providers

    What do people expect this top up to be? I expect it to be around 3-5c

    Post edited by graememk at

    "Make no mistake. The days of the internal combustion engine are definitely numbered" - Quentin Willson, 1997



  • #47
    SD_DRACULA
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,725 ✭✭✭SD_DRACULA


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123028603#Comment_123028603

    So people will expect some sort of Octopus tariff but what will probably happen is a sort of half-assed implementation tickbox exercise that will benefit no one (like smart tariffs were supposed to save people money but is ripping them off instead, EV plans excluded)

    Only thing might offset it is if the FIT goes up significantly during peak hours but even then it's too small to do anything with the stupid 5-6kw limits.

    Post edited by graememk at


  • #48
    ECO_Mental
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,854 ✭✭✭ECO_Mental


    Looking forward to it also and gives many options for cost saving etc.. but when the Celtic Interconnector comes online (2026 I think) this might do away with negative pricing as any excess will be pushed to France…this the whole idea of this connection.

    Post edited by graememk at

    6.1kWp south facing, South of Cork City



  • #49
    10-10-20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,114 ✭✭✭✭10-10-20


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123028685#Comment_123028685

    Exactly, and if we were to use your suggested pricing of 3-5c per kWh then that will negate the negative rates as it only hit -3 EUR/MWh, or -0.03 EUR/kWh (or minus three cents) at it's lowest point. So in effect you might never see a reasonable negative value; plus if the FiT is reduced then you're on the long end of the whip on all aspects except for your self-generated power.

    Post edited by graememk at


  • #50
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,733 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Aye, the Pinergy 5c import, 25c export plan is still active. If still so by my renewal date early September, I will likely sign up for another 2 years. It is extrememly profitable for anyone with a large battery. You don't even have to have PV or an EV. In fact I might look into renewing early (in case the plan disappears)

    Post edited by graememk at

    "Make no mistake. The days of the internal combustion engine are definitely numbered" - Quentin Willson, 1997



  • #51
    10-10-20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,114 ✭✭✭✭10-10-20


    Here's the data broken our per hour of the day/ per season for that same period (yes, I know it's hectic).

    image.png

    Here's the yearly data per hour of the day:

    image.png

    Note the average hovering around 110 EUR/MWh (11c kWh) and SD being around ~40 EUR/MWh (so variance of around 4c). That is then your 'typical' pricing range - 7c to 15c at market rates (less the base unit charge).

    Post edited by graememk at


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  • #52
    Red Silurian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,948 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058386829/dynamic-electricity-pricing-finally-coming-this-year

    Few questions and apologies if you don't have the answers

    Who sets the Dynamic Unit Rate Charge?

    Do we get to choose which rate we want on a half-hourly basis? Ie if the dynamic unit rate is 10c higher can we choose the base unit rate and vice-versa?

    Do we need a smart meter avail of this?

    Seems an auful lot like what we already have with smart meter plans or am I missing something?

    Post edited by graememk at


  • #53
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,733 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123028851#Comment_123028851

    Year average about 12c. I'd rather stick to my year average of 6c. And have guaranteed year long 25c FIT

    Good work though, thanks for sharing the analysed data!

    Post edited by graememk at

    "Make no mistake. The days of the internal combustion engine are definitely numbered" - Quentin Willson, 1997



  • #54
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,733 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123028858#Comment_123028858
    1. the market sets the rate for the day. By providers bidding the day before and lowest bidder(s) get it. The market is the all Ireland (32 counties) electricity market
    2. no. you sign up for the plan, you pay the rates as set by the market. Same for buying as for selling. Plus the uplift from your electricity provider
    3. yes you need smart meter
    4. the rates are fully dynamic, so different from what we have with our fixed import and export rates. In NL for example, any time the sun is expected to shine around the midday hours the next day, you have to pay to export solar PV to the grid
    Post edited by graememk at

    "Make no mistake. The days of the internal combustion engine are definitely numbered" - Quentin Willson, 1997



  • #55
    10-10-20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,114 ✭✭✭✭10-10-20


    Who sets the Dynamic Unit Rate Charge?

    It's traded on a 'day ahead' market so the it's open to power providers and large consumers/suppliers, etc.

    https://www.semopx.com/markets/day-ahead-market/

    Member listing:

    https://www.semopx.com/joining-the-market/how-to-join/

    Do we get to choose which rate we want on a half-hourly basis? Ie if the dynamic unit rate is 10c higher can we choose the base unit rate and vice-versa?

    If you sign-up then you're taking accepting the day-ahead rates as published. Your defense against higher rates is your ability to import and store lower rate power and then consume it at a time when the rates are as their highest. I believe that there will be an opt-out where you won't be contractually obliged to remain tied in, but that's all to be seen.

    Do we need a smart meter avail of this?

    A functioning smart meter is required, yes.

    Seems an auful lot like what we already have with smart meter plans or am I missing something?

    No it's not, these are dynamic market rates as opposed to demand (peak/offpeak) pricing. Big difference.

    Post edited by graememk at


  • #56
    10-10-20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,114 ✭✭✭✭10-10-20


    …and just to be clear, I'm not in the business of or have an interest in selling or promoting this. I just did the analysis as a lay-person effectively. It's up to you to decide on the basis of the data and your own analysis.

    Post edited by graememk at


  • #57
    10-10-20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,114 ✭✭✭✭10-10-20


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123028923#Comment_123028923

    Seasonal variation will play a part here, but this isn't the same dynamic pricing like in Texas. As some of you may recall in Texas in Feb 2021 they had a significant freeze and the market pricing increased the demand unit rate to $9 kWh. I know a guy who used $300 of power that morning just warming the house and boiling the kettle… 😁 That can't happen here as there are caps placed on the unit rates.

    Post edited by graememk at


  • #58
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60,733 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123028974#Comment_123028974

    Should have bought a genny when he signed up for that plan 😂

    That wasn't the first BTW, in a heatwave in 2019 also in Texas, the unit price went up to $9 too. Should have installed some PV to keep cool and run that aircon for free…

    Love these rates BTW. People (like us in here) with powerful inverters and large (battery) storage could make an absolute fortune with these sort of peaks and negative troughs, probably €20-30k per year per household

    Post edited by graememk at

    "Make no mistake. The days of the internal combustion engine are definitely numbered" - Quentin Willson, 1997



  • #59
    Red Silurian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,948 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123028923#Comment_123028923
    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123028940#Comment_123028940

    On paper it sounds somewhat logical although relying on "the market" for pricing hasn't done us very well in the past, notably when Ukraine was invaded, so I'd be very cautious before signing up to such a tarriff.

    Interesting that the lowest price is what we will pay, rather than the current situation of paying the highest one.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123028974#Comment_123028974

    I don't believe our rates in Ireland are capped although they are in the UK

    Post edited by graememk at


  • #60
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,081 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    It'll be interesting to see how they manage the traditional winter peak. the SMP for €/kWh can be very high during these periods.

    Post edited by graememk at


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  • #61
    graememk
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 7,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123029228#Comment_123029228

    The dynamic price, on these proposed plans have a cap

    Post edited by graememk at


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