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Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,769 ✭✭✭crusd


    Let me see, Catherine Connolly, Paul Gogarty, Seamus Healy, Barry Heneghan?, Marian Harkin

    Any chance for the Sinn Fein gene poolers in Stanley and Nolan😀



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,566 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Heneghan and Harkin would be far more willing to support FF/FG.

    Nolan might be willing to work with SF these days, Stanley though…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,977 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,977 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,774 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,087 ✭✭✭almostover


    More like 51%, was the FF/FG combo not just 2 seats away from a majority? It's even less when you factor in the former FG independents and the likes of the Healy-Rae's who are essentially FF.

    Also that 51% are very fractured in terms of what they do want. Split across the parties of the left who can't find a common platform to assemble a government.

    If anything the electorate have given the FF/FG combo more of a mandate than 5 years ago. They now won't need a 3rd party like the Greens to help them govern if they so choose. That choice wasn't available in 2020.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,774 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I'll be delighted if they set out on their mandate with a selection of Inds.
    They both have a very defined set of promises and policy to fix the various crisis's so there will be no hiding.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭Dr Robert


    I think that's the main issue for SF.

    The change they are offering isn't really seen as much of a change at all. They are a temu version of FFG.

    It's SF that needs to change for people to take them serious. Policies and leader.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,977 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Yup, you have got that one right.

    Unfortunately there are those out there who can’t see what’s in front of their eyes.

    Doubt if there there is any serious percentile of those who can understand the issues possibly confronting us,want to be ruled from Connolly House.

    What’s left is those bar- room ‘patriots’ hankering for the whiff of the whins on the mountain side,and usually conducting their affairs from the comfort of the fireside with nothing to do but stir things up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,117 ✭✭✭StormForce13


    I don't need things to improve, thanks. And even if I did, I wouldn't buy a pig in a poke called "Sinn Fein".

    I assume that somewhere in the dimmer recesses of your intellect you're dimly aware that voting for so-called "Change" can result in Change for the Better or Change for the Worse. And you'd want to be at the very bottom of your beloved remedial class to imagine - even for a nano second - that Mary-Lou and her mob would be capable of delivering the former.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,368 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    The electorate was clear:
    The final vote share for top three parties in Election 24 is Fianna Fáil 21.9%, Fine Gael 20.8% and Sinn Féin 19.0%

    30% of SF voters didn't include any choices to transfer apart from the SF candidates themselves, so that leaves an even smaller number of SF voters who want the party to go into government with anyone else.

    Perhaps they just love abstentionism…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,266 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    It will be an even stronger government than the last one IMO as they will only have to pander to local independents issues, rather than play to a third parties ideology here and there to keep them happy.

    The truth is SF don't have the mandate that gives the right to form a government in the ROI. The majority in Ireland are not comfortable with SF in government in the ROI for a myriad of reasons. The electorate have given that mandate to FF/FG and likely a few independents.

    The reality is Ireland has achieved a level of stability and prosperity that even many European countries would love to achieve. All while having a more central role and great soft power in the EU. While also being the only native English speaking country in the EU.

    The majority of the electorate are smart enough to know that voting SF into government would either disrupt or destroy this. In reality SF are a very insular, local type party, who is Euroskeptic at best, and more focused on symbolism at worst. The only international type issue SF is vocal on is the pro-Palestine narrative which their hardcore erroneously equate to "Na Sé Chontae" as they call it.

    I think opposition will suit SF they need to gradually move to the centre, while not alienating their hardcore the usual stereotypes on the border regions, and the working class in Dublin who are anti-immigrant etc.

    SF are really in catch 22 - FF won't go in bed with them, because of SF's previous dubious choice of partners. And SF going more centrist to court the middle class vote, in the ROI can alienate their hardcore "traditional" vote.

    Post edited by gormdubhgorm on

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭pureza


    But the electorate chose a return of the current government with gene pool independents,nothing could be clearer

    The losing side is the left

    I’m not including SF in that because honestly,they move any further and they’ll be fully centrist

    If we end up donating Ukrainians housing and Syrians to the hap scheme,they’ll be ditching the wealth tax,probably their next big move,no progress otherwise into the votes of aspiring middle classes,unless there’s another economic shock or pandemic



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Finty Lemon


    "Change" was such a weak strategy for SF. It's been done to death already. There was no compelling vision to go with the cliché.

    Also,Eoin O Broins much vaunted plan was a muddled, fatally flawed mess. He deserves a huge slice of the blame for the big decline in SF votes. A bluffer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,774 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    What I'm seeing here is a tremendous surge of complacency and arrogance no doubt replicated in the bowels of FF FG. A sense they have won something they haven't.
    They've survived, that's really all that can be said. A truck (the coalition/merger) is now a juggernaut. Business will resume. Nobody is stepping back.

    The outcome of this election was written on the wall for a while. I posted months ago I didn't think SF would be in government and I was right. There are negatives and positives for SF and the rest of the opposition.

    I did think Brand Harris was doomed but didn't factor in his efficiency at affecting a FG slump in the final days. I don't expect it to get better for FG under him.

    I thought it would be a bigger gap tbh with FF FG getting clear white water to swim in but Harris's campaign and a good campaign for SF, Labour and the SocDems keeps it real for the opposition.
    You can see the fault lines SF will attack already - a FG wing of government that really has no right to parity of esteem. MLMD is doing a good job making it clear FF did have choices, that will pay dividends later in the term.

    What remains now is for them to do a deal with the parish pumpers and business resumes.

    Not much more to be said really.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    Here's a thing that probably needs to eb recognised.

    Did sinn fein have a good campaign (by which I mean the 3 weeks of the official campaign)? Yes. Mary Lou is a fierce campaigner, she stopped the rot of the previous months and clawed back support.

    Did sinn fein have a good period in opposition? Not really. They spiked too early and once it got into the period when an election was approaching their support dropped like a stone. They've stopped that drop, but will it grow back up to the mid to high 20s or beyond? Hard to say, especially with a resuegent labour and a surging Soc Dems (assuming both stay in opposition).

    It can also be said that, while Harris and FG had a very poor campaign, he's been good for the party since he took over. Imagine where the FG numbers would be if it was Leo who led them into the election? The question for Simon Harris is whether the bounce in support he got when he took over was just a short term thing? Or whether he can keep that growth going while in government. It's possible that people will see them in government and make them more popular again, forgetting the campaign.

    Political parties need to be able to campaign well, and also perform well across the whole of the Dail term. This is something sinn fein suffer with (more with the dail term than the campaigning), it's also something fine gael suffer with (they have never had a good election campaign apart from the tap in that was 2011).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 17,763 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    It's been an annus horribilis for SF, kudos on creating a lengthy coping narrative to cling to.

    It is amazing after all the vitriol that was directed at Varadkar that the response has just been to copy/paste Harris and hope no one notices (FG renewing half their party and getting the FPV they did with it was a huge achievement, "parity of esteem" is a very lazy attack point especially when MLMD is publicly offering similar castrating future points on this).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    You posted months ago that it was inevitable that Sinn Fein would lead the next government.

    I can't see any positives for Sinn Fein from this election. All their jaded old TDs are back, MLMD needs to overhaul the front bench and get a fresh look, but there is no new talent. Their housing policy has been shown to be an unimplementable mess.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,774 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    when an election was approaching their support dropped like a stone.

    If you ignore why that support dropped (had little to do with their general performance as an opposition IMO) and the likelihood that the reasons will not be there in this term (Safe to say now the electorate generally are not over concerned with Immigration) then you will likely miss the potential that they can take back some of that support, the support that they want. The quotient that was not far-right but angry and concerned at how it was being handled. Dare the incoming government foist the responsibilities on areas without facilities and infrastructure now? A tricky one with the parish pumpers on board.

    Re; Harris. I still think he has the potential to be more reviled than Leo ever was tbh. Once the façade is seen through and a lot did get to see through it, it is hard to change perception.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,897 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    the electorate say they aren't concerned about immigration is a bit of a naive attitude, but most people I know are. it's just the parties who are saying they will do something are unpalatable.

    sinn feinn didn't pivot on the subject for no reason when they saw which way the wind was blowing

    My weather

    https://www.ecowitt.net/home/share?authorize=96CT1F



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The bitterness at the election result runs deep.

    The mythical rejection of the far right trope resurfaces again. The performance of the far right was miniscule in the election. Sinn Fein went from 37% in the polls to 19% in the election. That wasn't votes going to the far right, that was ordinary people realising they would be worse off under Sinn Fein.

    I actually don't mind if your pretending otherwise is the internal analysis within Sinn Fein, because it will mean that they fail to address the reasons for their abysmal performance in losing 5 percentage points of the electorate, like, even the Greens didn't lose that much.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,774 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    It would be foolish to think MLMD has any serious hopes that FF will respond to her. I'd credit her with more political wit tbh. She's making it clear that MM is making a 'choice' in order to use that against him further down the line.
    It was a theme of the opposition campaign, 'it is the choices you make - who to tax, who to govern with, who to ignore and who to look after, that defines you.
    That will continue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,774 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You posted months ago that it was inevitable that Sinn Fein would lead the next government.

    Well over a year ago when SF were consistently at 35+% in the polls. Speculation on poll results.

    When those numbers dropped I 'speculated' again that they would not be in government on the basis of those numbers, which has proven correct.

    That is what normal people do with opinion polls blanch - speculate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    If MLMD wants to keep down that road, off with her, the people seem happy with their choices. The choice they made was to reject the Sinn Fein nonsense, the SF back of an envelope housing plan.

    Do you remember when I tore shreds out of the SF plan? How EOB was going around claiming a 108-page plan that was really only about 30 pages because it was bilingual and full of empty pages and pictures like a children's book? You defended that plan, even as I said it would cost SF the election. Well, I was right.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    It was less than 18 months ago, so we are counting in months. If you said a few short weeks ago, the penny dropped for you that SF wouldn't be in government, then you are correct, because it was right into the last days of the election campaign before you admitted that SF were in trouble, and you started going back to improvements on the polls. Right up until two weeks before the election, you were talking about comparing general election to general election, then you switched to SF out-performing the local elections and the opinion polls, adjusting your narrative in the great tradition of the Ministry for Truth to match the facts.

    Inevitability isn't speculation. If you claim that something is inevitable, you are not speculating that it is possible, you are not speculating that it is likely, you are not speculating that it is probable, you are making an assertion that it is 100% true and inevitable. It is the type of hubris and arrogance that leads to a fall.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,796 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    that was a great election for SF



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,774 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You'd have a leg to stand on if you also tore shreds of many plans that have gotten us to the crisis Housing is in.

    You tear shreds of everything not FG FF blanch. Those of us who know you know you'd be tearing strips of FF too only they are driving the juggernaut keeping FG in power.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I think you have failed again to understand how housing policy works. You cannot change housing policy overnight. Like a giant cruise ship or an aircraft carrier, you cannot change direction quickly. We stopped building housing in 2010 because of ghost estates, turning that around is a slow process. FF and FG are well on the way to that turnaround, it has been slower than needed (just like public transport) but it is getting there, and will improve in the coming years. There is a major shift in the construction industry in the last 18 months, out of commercial and into infrastructure and housing.

    However, as I saw, and most of the electorate also saw, the Sinn Fein proposals were like a missile approaching that cruise ship, with the potential to slow or even stop the progress already made. That was my analysis and I stand over it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,774 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Very defined promises made now in the campaign.

    Let's see how they get on.
    As I said, I'll be delighted if it ends up with FF FG and Ind's. There is no hiding place now. Fix what you siad you fix or carry the can.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,977 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    More rubbish, the boy has every entitlement to support who he likes and feels most aligned with his ideals.

    What happened here was that those who can evaluate things, said firmly and clearly that they didn't want to

    be governed from Connolly House. Others cast their votes for people like Gerard Hutch.

    "Going after" people as MLMD promised is not the way to operate, trying to shoehorn United Ireland into things right now

    is also a bad outlook.

    If SF maybe copped themselves on and actually really saw what the electorate wanted they might do better.



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