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Son accused of affray

  • 24-11-2024 08:43PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 509 ✭✭✭


    Nightmare scenario.

    18 year old son was arrested few months ago after he and two classmates were attacked on Parnell Street by a gang of youths after leaving Cineworld. My son gave a voluntary statement at the time ( not under caution) and he has not departed from it since: the other group attacked them, robbed them, and then ran off with their stuff. Some of his friends threw punches but all he did was fend off a guy who was trying to grab his schoolbag.

    Unfortunately the Gardaí is treating it like a public order incident. My son was 17 at the time but he has since turned 18 so they've charged him as an adult. They're claiming he is equally responsible for the disorder and that it wasn't self-defence as insults and threats were exchanged. To add insult to injury, the other gang have not been charged as they are still minors.

    The solictor is encouraging him to plead guilty, which I am personally shocked by. He has never been the subject of complaints at school about fighting, so I can't see him provoking a fight like this.

    What are our options?



«134

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,267 ✭✭✭blackbox


    The solicitor would hardly recommend him to plead guilty unless he is aware of some evidence that you are not aware of.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,202 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    Stop taking your son's word for it. If he's the only innocent angel here, it's a complete anamoly.

    So there's no CCTV and nothing else to prove him innocent/not innocent? Of course…his friends threw punches but he didn't. Convenient.

    Solicitor probably has seen cases like this time-and-time again. He's not just saying to plead guilty for the laugh of it.

    You can't use your own beliefs like 'so I can't see him provoking a fight like this'. You just don't know.

    EDIT: Checked your created threads….Legal Discussion a popular forum for you!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 509 ✭✭✭Sono Topolino


    I can honestly say that there is no "history" of him getting into fights at school. He is very focused, almost too focused, on academics. He is about to do the leaving cert and wants to study economics, maths and stats in UCD. So it is unbelievable to me that he is looking at potentially prison time.

    Furthermore, there is CCTV evidence and the solicitor has reviewed it and it corroborated my son's story. They were attacked after leaving the cinema. Also the manager at Cineworld claims the other gang often congregates outside harassing customers, and has volunteered to speak on our behalf. The issue is that someone has come forward claiming my son and/or his friends used insulting/threatening language during the scuffle which the solicitor claims tips the scales against him. Furthermore, the solicitor claims that you cannot rely on self-defence if you use insulting/threatening language. My son admits that one of his friends called the other gang "knackers" and "traveller scum", but claims he never said anything of the sort.

    I just find it bizarre that another gang of kids decided to rob my son and his friends and now he's getting prosecuted. My son gave a voluntary statement in the hopes that they would catch the other gang but they're using that against him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,496 ✭✭✭SteM


    I would have thought it's highly unlikely he'll get prison time if he's never been in trouble before.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 23,024 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    it would be highly unlikely he’d get prison time, no matter what his record. He’s not being charged with anything particularly serious.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,496 ✭✭✭SteM


    The OP suggested it's a possibility. I assume this is not coming from his solictor and he is panicking.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 23,024 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    I missed that. Fair enough.

    In all likelihood it’ll be a small fine. Max is €500 I see.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 442 ✭✭Seattle


    I would ignore the post telling you not to believe your son - it's self righteous and poorly thought out.

    In my opinion, you won't really get a good answer here. Write down all the questions/inconsistencies surrounding this case and try to condense it into a list of targeted questions that you can ask the solicitor in order to get clarity on his advice. Also consider getting a second legal opinion if you're not satisfied with the response you get.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 509 ✭✭✭Sono Topolino


    The solicitor said he could be sentenced to up to one year in prison if he doesn't plead guilty, whereas if he does he would get the probation act.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,384 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    Important to get all facts correct- I’d talk to your son and explain that no matter what he said or didn’t say it’s best to tell the truth now, and you can work things from there - lying is the worst thing he can do



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭con747


    A year in prison for what? Name calling? If the CCTV and cinema manager corroborated his story then I don't see why he is facing any charges at all.

    Don't expect anything from life, just be grateful to be alive.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 509 ✭✭✭Sono Topolino


    A key question for me is whether he can argue self-defence. The solicitor thinks that the Judge won't entertain it given the nature of the offence charged and the alleged slurs/threatening language. He said it's not worth bothering as he will "almost certainly" get the probation act.

    But if my son did nothing wrong, pleading guilty seems inherrently wrong. I don't want to burden his future career with that...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 509 ✭✭✭Sono Topolino




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭con747


    Don't expect anything from life, just be grateful to be alive.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭reclose


    If there is CCTV then he is ok. It will show him not doing anything wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭reclose


    there’s no way he’s doing time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,442 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,202 ✭✭✭✭callaway92




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 509 ✭✭✭Sono Topolino


    It shows him pushing and shoving a fellow who is trying to take his school backpack. That doesn't seem wrong to me?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,496 ✭✭✭SteM


    This solicitor is obviously unaware of the current state of the Irish prison system.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 509 ✭✭✭Sono Topolino


    Starting to suspect that he wants him to plead guilty and get the probation act because that is "easier".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭reclose




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭con747


    OP, if everything is as said it's your son's future on the line so get a good solicitor to ensure it. I can't actually believe a solicitor is advising you to plead guilty if all the evidence available to you is correct. A judge would laugh that out of court IMO.

    Don't expect anything from life, just be grateful to be alive.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 7,121 ✭✭✭appledrop


    I have to agree, if it's all as you say it is then why the hell would he plead guilty? That's actually worse because then the judge/ jury etc don't have to see any of the evidence because he is saying he is guilty! No guarantee the judge will give him probation act.

    Now I'm not a legal person so as others have said you need to consult a new solicitor ASAP.

    Are you or your son not allowed see the CCTV? The only issue could be that it's not all the way your son is saying. The whole thing seems very strange something not adding up.

    You said your son gave a voluntary statement and he was under 18 would he not have needed a parent with him? If he did and no adult was present well then surely straight away the guards won't have a leg to stand on if the interviewed a minor? I'm no expert but maybe someone else here knows a bit more about this area.

    A criminal record will stay with your son for life even if its only a fine. I'd be on the phone to a new solicitor first thing in morning.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,728 ✭✭✭Widdensushi


    Where are you based, get another solicitor,, your son isn't going to do time but he also doesn't need a conviction so shouldn't be pleading guilty.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 7,121 ✭✭✭appledrop


    Just reading your post again, don't understand how others not charged as minors. What explanation was you son given around this? Are they been dealt with under the juvenile liaison scheme? Minors can still be charged and convicted and they get sent to Oberstown.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 509 ✭✭✭Sono Topolino


    I accompanied him to the Garda station to give a voluntary statement and make a complaint against the other gang. This seems to have been our first mistake as he admits to pushing and shoving another boy who was trying to take his bag.

    I am not sure what is going on but my guess is that it's some sort of juvenile liaison scheme.

    I'll look at getting another solicitor first thing tomorrow as you and others suggest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,982 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Get a different solicitor. Some legal aid solicitors don't want to annoy the judges by running court cases against the guards.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 23,024 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    and if he gives the same advice? Please listen.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭csirl


    Get another solicitor - one who will genuinely advocate on behalf of your son. Remember that the solicitor takes instructions from the client, not the other way round. If the solicitor is instructed to fight thr case, they will.

    The first thing you need to do is get all the evidence. Your son cant decide what to do next without the full facts. Instruct the solicitor to seek FULL DISCLOSURE of all evidence. This will give him access to all witness statements, CCTV etc. Note that ordinarily the Gardai will only disclose the statements that they are going to use in court and not those favourable to your son - hence the need for FULL disclosure.

    You also need to gather your own evidence and get it on record. The cinema owner is no use to you unless he's prepared to make a statement.



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