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USA 2024 presidential election

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,910 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    I feel like you are projecting your own beliefs here.

    Any Arab Americans that I heard being interviewed were furious about the Biden Administration's attitude to the suffering of the Palestinians and were angry with Harris for not allowing any Palestinian to speak at the DNC.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Maybe, I might not be as centrist on this as i think.

    id counter that Trump was known for being very pro Israel, an awful lot of the Muslims in America are ones who have been on the receiving end of groups like Hez, Iran.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,013 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I think voting for Trump or abstaining was a terrible choice, but I can completely understand why they would. It would have been so easy for the Democrats and Harris to reach out and show support to them, and they chose to ignore and condescend instead. Shot themselves in the foot needlessly and for what?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    They presumed they were entitled to their vote and it wouldn't go elsewhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,910 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    This American Life dedicated an episode (link below) to this about 6 weeks ago. It was around an Arabic guy who was an operative in the Democratic party. He was both trying to convince his friends, family and community (in Michigan) to vote for Harris while also desperately trying to get the Harris campaign to allow a Palestinian speaker at the DNC.

    Ultimately he failed at both tasks. He couldn't even convince his own father to vote for the Democrats. His father's attitude was "Why should I stand with the Democrats when they won't stand with my people?".

    He held a public meeting with his community try to convince them. There was a lot of push back. Some people wanted to vote for Jill Stein. Others planned on not voting. One guy said he'd vote for Trump as Trump had stated that he would bring peace to the middle east and he wanted to believe him.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭Economics101


    IF you are an Arab-American, surely Harris should be regarded at worst as the lesser of two evils. So much for rational choice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,013 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    How rational can you expect people who have family suffering a US sponsored genocide to be? At the end of the day, what they were asking for was both the morally correct position, and something that was in Harris's best interests, not to mention what US law would demand they do. Massive own goal on their part. Sending Clinton to lecture the Arab community was wildly insulting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,910 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Unlike in Economics humans aren't actually perfectly rational actors. Often their emotions take hold. Specifically in this case anger at the Democratic administration who talked a lot but took no actions except to help Netanyahu.

    If there were some parallel universe where Irish people were being continuously slaughtered for over a year I don't think I could bring myself to vote for the lesser of two evils either. I'd likely just abstain.

    I understand that Harris couldn't put much daylight between herself and Biden on this since she's still his vice President but the one thing that was in her control was who could speak at the DNC. She chose not to allow a Palestinian make a pre-approved speech presumably because she feared a backlash from pro-Israel voters and donors.

    At the end of the day the election wasn't particularly close so this decision didn't make or break her.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭ilkhanid


    Indeed-a wide range:from racists to misogynists to conspiraloons to anti-vaxxers to tech bros drooling over crypto to anti-semites to woman-haters to gun lovers to prosperity gospellers, evangelicals and end-of-days nuts that only care about Israel to climate deniers to Wall streeters looking for tax breaks to born-again confederates to mexican haters to Arab/Moslem haters to people that love to see trash getting one over on somebody to perverts to secret and not-so-secret 'strongman' lovers to people that don't care if the world burns if the price of petrol goes down. A broad coalition to be sure.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭ilkhanid


    …and if a few score thousands of fellow-Muslims get shot, burned, blown to bits, crippled for life in the process of destroying Hamas and Hezbollah, they think its worth it? Hhmmm….that sounds like a reasonable price to pay.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,616 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Except Israel will never succeed in destroying Hamas or Hezbollah; ask USA how it went in Iraq, Syria or Afghanistan if you need to see the facts on the ground from a nation with a vastly more powerful army trying to do exactly that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Yes, I'm aware of the limitations of rationality as an assumption. I can understand abstaining in disgust at both candidates. But acrually voting for Trump if you are Arab or Muslim? Bonkers choice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    By the recent standards of war in thr region, its a small scale one, we'll leave it here as it could go off topic but there are an awful lot of people in the middle East who are much more against hamas and hezbollah/Iranian regime than I am.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,335 ✭✭✭✭Rjd2


    We forget they are a socially conservative bloc and used to vote for the GOP in good numbers before.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭rock22


    The genocide in Palestinian is not small scale. it is one of the greatest blights on humanity since WW2



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Ok, it's a galactic defining event.

    Point is that what was happening on the far side of the world was not the consideration for the electorate that so many thought it would be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,910 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    After Trump picked Gaetz for AG it was clear that basic competency or even any qualifications were required for a role. I therefore suspected that RFK Jr was going to get a job. Still pretty shocking to see it actually happen though. Those two picks have completely overshadowed the Tulsi Gabbard pick - a literal Putin and Assad apologist.

    I'd never even heard of his pick for Defence Secretary before but now that I have and seen his history that's also a joke pick.

    Trump is basically taking the Boris Johnson attitude of prizing loyalty above all else but he's turning the dial all the way up.

    Seems like he's likely to try some chicanery around forcing a recess of Congress in order to get all these clowns appointed.

    2025 is going to be fascinating…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,013 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    It sets up an interesting confirmation process. How willing will the Senate republicans be to see the Legislative Branch subsumed by the executive? How willing are they to see the Federal Government dismantled?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,013 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    https://newrepublic.com/post/188475/trump-cabinet-sexual-assault-pete-hegseth-defense

    In what I'm sure will come as a shock, the thrice married nominee has sexual assault claims against him. Did Epstein draft this cabinet?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,910 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    I don't think there will be any confirmation process. It seems like the Republicans leaders of both Houses will vote to go on recess and then Trump will appoint all of these people without the Senate confirmation.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭ilkhanid


    Not so much in scale as in the sheer destructive power visited upon a limited, overcrowded area with an utterly callous disregard for the civilian toll. It reminds me of the title of an unrelated book ''Hell in a very small place''. Te reiterate my point, are Arab Americans comfortable with this, conservative or not? Are they agreeable with the deaths of a score or scores of lebanese or Gazan civilians in exchange for, say, the killing of one or two Hezbollah or Hamas operatives?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭ilkhanid


    Basic competency and qualifications are irrelevant to Trump. I doubt that even if he thought about or understand the chaos these malign dunderheads would cause that it would cost him a moments sleep. As well as the cruelty, the destruction is the point. Any crazier and we'd be at an incitatus level of madness. I suppose we should be grateful that Trump didn't doesn't plan to pardon some of the 6/1 Capitol insurrectionists or the notorious GOP Paedophiles and appoint them to his cabinet. At least I hope so.

    Post edited by ilkhanid on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,181 ✭✭✭eire4


    If they do that it would very much fit the current authoritarian profile of the Republican party.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,958 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Sudan 62K

    Syria 300K

    Kaner Rouge 1.5-2 million

    Vietnam about 3 million( 2 million civilians)

    China since WW11 23-30 million

    Korea 3 million during war and about 1 5+ million in North Korea since.

    Serbia, Bosnia, Kosova war 100k+

    I think you got a bit carried away with your description

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,702 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Your tally does not include Iraqi deaths as the USA never counted them.

    Nor is there any total of Palestinian deaths - not just from bombs and gunfire or collapsed buildings crushing those inside - but from lack of food and water (starvation) or lack of medical supplies or fuel needed to provide urgent medical attention.

    There is an attempt to immunise against polio, but that is highly contagious and might affect the military forces of the occupying power.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,958 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    The Figures for the Iran Iraq war is 1 million plus , the US invasion of Iraq and subsequent actions 500k+. Both dwarf Gaza. Rwanda genocide 5-800k and500k women raped.

    my point being while Gaza is horrific it is not on the same scale as sone other conflicts

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭swampgas


    I came across an article analysing the reasons many people like and support Trump, despite seeming to be a dreadful candidate to others. Two points (among others) which I found interesting, were framing and the strong father model.

    Link: https://www.theframelab.org/some-lessons-of-the-2024-election/

    I had never heard the term "framing" before, explained in some detail here: https://www.theguardian.com/science/head-quarters/2017/jul/20/the-power-of-framing-its-not-what-you-say-its-how-you-say-it.

    Choosing the right frame

    Why is it so hard to convince someone of the opposite political party as you? Research shows the Democrats and Republicans tend to have very different moral foundations. Whereas Democrats are more likely to pay attention to values like fairness, reciprocity and doing no harm in determining what is moral, Republicans are more likely to pay attention to things like in-group loyalty, respect for authority, and purity.

    People tend to frame political arguments in terms of their own values, but when arguing across party lines, it is much more effective to frame your argument in terms of your opponent’s values. For instance, environmental issues are often framed in terms of the harm pollution wreaks on the environment. However, when environmental issues are reframed in terms of the conservative value of purity – emphasizing the importance of keeping our forests, drinking water, and skies pure – conservatives are much more likely to support this cause.

    Reframing can convince liberals to support more conservative causes as well. The issue of increasing military spending is often supported by arguments that emphasise in-group loyalty, authority, and patriotism. However, reframing this cause to emphasise fairness – stating how the military can help the poor and disadvantaged and provide people with a reliable salary – makes liberals more likely to support increasing military spending.

    Another observation which I found interesting is that "people don’t necessarily vote their self-interest. Instead, they vote their values". This combined with a strong attraction to something called the "Strong Father Model" in the US, especially among conservatives, makes Trump a far more attractive candidate than many Democrats/Liberals would guess.

    The same article says something I've believed for quite a while - that authoritarians are winning the communication war. This has ramifications way beyond the US, as the right wing in many EU countries are looking to the US to learn how to do the same thing. GB News in the UK would be an example, it's pretty much Fox News UK.

    I'm not sure what conclusions, if any, I've drawn from this, but I think it gives an insight into how conservatives might think and vote.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,187 ✭✭✭Field east


    Ivan the Terrible; ‘ Trump the Wrecker’; ‘Trump the ————‘ . Insert your own word . Remember where you saw it first when four more years comes around



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,009 ✭✭✭10000maniacs


    Trump has picked Howard Lutnick to lead his trade and tariff strategy.

    Lutnick has certainly changed his tune on Ireland and is now gunning for us.

    "It's nonsense that Ireland of all places runs a trade surplus at our expense. We don’t make anything here any more".

    Here is what he said just 11 years ago about Ireland.

    Howard Lutnick; "Irish Government Is Focused On Bringing Jobs To Ireland" - YouTube

    He needs to stop looking for scapegoats and focus on the USA's main problem. Skilled workers there don't get out of bed for less than $50 an hour.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,518 ✭✭✭scottser


    The US has already interfered with the passing of the Occupied Territories Bill and if they target our tax rates we should simply refuse their military permission to land at Shannon. I believe our Americunt neighbours call this '**** around and finding out'.



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