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Energy infrastructure

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    Are you a blow-in? Every winter there are a number of dunkelflauten when a high pressure weather pattern rests over the entire Island of Ireland. Some are more severe and long lasting than others. Ireland isn't as large as Germany and has limited interconnectors from which energy can be pumped in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    They do but I was referring to the MAN gas engines that were hundreds of tons each and proved quite difficult to bring to their location. I think it was around Grange Castle.

    Yes they absolutely should have a combination of wind and solar on site.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    What is the problem for one or two people with this Dunkelflaute obsession?

    Without renewables we have 365 Dunkelflauten days per year and we are more exposed (100%) to imported electrity being cut off.

    Their own argument is being undermined by the latter half of their own argument. I don't get it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    Because the Greens expect others to altruistically keep their generation capacity in reserve and step in to the breach whenever the renewable sources, predictably, let the Nation down. Capiche?

    Post edited by gossamerfabric on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,609 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Reserve capacity is paid for. Its business, not altruism.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,418 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I showed you the actual measured data for wind-energy generation over the last 12 months, which clearly peaks over the Winter months, and you're blathering on about high-pressure systems? You are fixating on short-term detail, because it's the only way your argument sounds plausible. Mistakenly thinking that a lack of exploitation is a lack of resource doesn’t help either.

    The static-world mindset you show is telling. Yes, right now Ireland lacks interconnection capacity, with just 1000 MW online. (9% of peak demand). However, that is only the situation right now. There is another 1200 MW under construction, to be commissioned early next year (500MW) and in 2026 (700MW, to France). Yesterday, the UK gave approval for another 1250 MW of interconnection projects with Ireland. Maybe you’re right, and nothing will ever change to relieve Ireland of its dearth of interconnection capacity, but the overwhelming probability is that you are, again, wrong on a matter of fact.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Greens in Ireland or Greens in Germany ?

    Different parties , different environments..

    Can't say that I know much about German policies or politics ,

    I know certain politicians went with a buy all the Russian gas we can get ,almost like junkies , and a certain former party leader took on the role of dealer , ( don't worry he was very well paid for that )

    I don't think there's a lot of altruism going on in the Irish energy sector ,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    Weather patterns are not short term in that they reoccur year after year. You showed a graph which obfuscated the issue. It would be like showing a graph of a heart pacemaker beats which beats throughout the year and beats faster some times to make up for the weeks when it decided not to beat.

    You are wrong and any impartial observer can see that an energy policy which is dependent on intermittent supply is fundamentally flawed. An energy policy which delivers no security of supply due to dependence on third parties overseas is highly risky as it undermines Irish sovereignty.

    All you have to offer is a pipe-dream of an imperfect model which has not been shown to work anywhere on this planet yet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Wikipedia page on power generation in Ireland,

    Almost all dispatchable power is gas , and if tarberts oil boilers get decommissioned,it'll be even more so ,

    There's also a list of decommissioned stations in Ireland ..

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    So you are saying the Public are paying the cost for this lunatic energy policy. Which way do you want to slice it…green energy is not really so expensive compared to the alternatives or it is ferociously expensive but the cost is being hidden from the Public.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,411 ✭✭✭j62




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    If only the Greenies could generate electricity while burning us heretics at the stake…it seems like a waste of good carbon neutral brazilian imported wood.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    Sounds interesting, tell me more about your proposed energy policy which will "deliver security of supply" without "dependence on third parties overseas"?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,418 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I showed a graph which refuted your assertion that wind power was lacking in the cold winter months (your words), and you’re still trying to claim that those facts are wrong. Yes, there might be a day with no wind here and there in that period. You alone think this is a big deal, but it really is not - on those days, we’ll use stored energy, import surplus wind electricity from somewhere else that has some (you know different parts of Europe have different weather, right?). We could also import nuclear energy, or… we would burn some fossil fuel. Yes, fossil fuel. Nobody is saying we’ll never burn gas (look at the exact wording of our climate commitments).

    So, let me be clear about this: Wind alone will not solve our energy issues; we will need a lot of storage, and the rare intervention of fossil-fuel, or the import of energy from elsewhere. That import will need more interconnection than we have, but those are being built. Against this, we will also produce large surpluses of wind energy that we will export through those same interconnects.

    The only pipe-dream is the one that says we can keep burning gas day in, day out. That’s what you’re offering as an argument? Isn’t it? Or is your position just that wind isn’t the perfect answer to all our problems. If that’s the case, then congratulations: you’re correct. Take your meaningless victory and enjoy it.

    “Third Parties overseas” refers to fellow members of the European Union, to whom we will also be providing power during times of surplus. (Right now, even with our small capacity, we have to curtail wind input due to a lack of anywhere to use it). True partnerships strengthen nations. I understand how you’d be upset about this, given that your country put its energy security in the hands of Vladimir Putin, but that’s exactly the situation we want to avoid. Energy security was the reason why the UK government (not Ireland) decided to grant permission for an extra 1200 MW of interconnection between Great Britain and Ireland (two interconnectors, one North and a bigger one South). Why do they want to connect to Ireland to aid their energy security? Because we are set to become a net exporter of energy over the next ten years.

    Again, your thinking is based on a strange idea of a steady, unchanging state. The real world is far more complex and dynamic, its structures and demands are constantly changing. For example, nuclear power wasn’t commercially viable at all (without defence-spending subsidies) until it suddenly was, and now it’s not viable again. The world changes, technology changes with it. Energy storage is being commercialised at an unprecedented rate, specifically to meet the demands of renewable energy. The technology existed for years, but there was no need for it. That’s how it always happens: inventions don’t get commercialised until there’s a need for them. Guess how many years elapsed between Bertha Benz’s first motor-car trip and the first commercial filling station for cars opening…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    First response... 3rd party like Preeti Patel who was threatening to starve us not so long ago.

    How quickly you forget those Russian vessels loitering in international waters just beyond our territory.

    Quality of Service is important. One week of no wind out of 31 days would be poor. Raging gales where the turbines shut down is poor too. Your graph would hide that quiet conveniently and I suspect it does.

    One of us is a pragmatist and it isn't you.

    Might reply more later.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    You'll be fairly mad when you find out Priti Patel could actually have cut off gas supply to the island.

    You are correct that is a national security issue that should be corrected by harvesting our own natural resources.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    You thought that graph was your coup de grâce. I decided to have a closer look and as I suspected there were multiple dunkelflauten hidden in the figures.

    I just went in to eirgrid and downloaded the quarter hourly excel sheet for the years 2022 to 2023.

    I just converted the wind generation figures out of it in to a line graph. There are days on end of next to no wind sourced electricity generation throughout the winter of 2022/23.

    It is absolutely frightening. https://www.eirgrid.ie/grid/system-and-renewable-data-reports

    22MB file so will need to download it and strip out all the other columns to draw a simple line graph.

    Here is All Ireland wind generation for October 2022 to March 2023 when there is little solar resource.

    aiwindgen.png

    and let us not forget that Eamon Ryan wants no LNG terminals in Ireland. How does he expect us to keep running? Divine Providence?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,418 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Well, that wasn't worth waiting for.

    The figures I have, and those you have, are for generation. Curtailment due to high winds or lack of asynchonous input capacity doesn't affect those figures, so mentioning it is just another red herring. You are also assuming "low wind" from low inputs.

    You seem wedded to this idiotic idea that if wind cannot priduce all of our electricity, then it is a complete failure. I've already explained why this position is wrong.

    Tell is all, please, what should Ireland do to improve it's current energy infrastructure? You're full of objections, so what's the solution?

    (by the way, what Eamon Ryan wants or does not want is irrelevant as he has retired from politics.)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    It is very hard to take you seriously…you are suggesting that the power generated from turbines was not needed in the winter and they chose to burn fossil fuel instead. Funny Man, funny man. Mendacity seems to be your trump card.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    I still had the excel sheet open so here is another graph showing that during dunkelflauten that the grid is taking all wind generated electricity which is possible to be produced and still falling far short of what the grid demand actually is.

    aiwindgenavail_with demand.png


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    it is about not being dependent on a regime who will exert pressure upon Ireland. LNG terminals could accept ships from anywhere around the world while Interconnectors can't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,741 ✭✭✭✭josip


    The article which you quoted to "focus minds" 1 post earlier said:

    "We will also need to significantly expand our interconnector capacity"

    Which side do you want your bread buttered on?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    it is fine to have interconnectors when you know that those on the far side of those interconnectors can't exert pressure upon you as you are not dependent on them for most of your supply…case in point Nordstrom sure left them in a pickle and all public buildings went dark over winter as the Germans feared they wouldn't have enough gas to see them through winter.

    The Green brainwave is to build more turbines, more solar, rely on very limited battery supply and interconnectors…what could possibly go wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    But what's your point man? Your reference to Nordstream is an argument for indigenous power resources.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Never mind bread. They want to eat cake and not pay for it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    Busman Paddy's strategy would be to dismiss out of hand those nagging issues which he can't explain away.

    Ireland has bet the house on Wind Turbines being able to serve as baseload despite all evidence showing that Wind energy is wholly unsuited to that role in the National grid…and some people are getting rich along the way on the back of the most expensive electricity(along with Germany) in Europe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Still noting a distinct lack of any actual solution beyond the planned by the state LNG Terminals



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    Here is a timely report this morning:

    "The Yantar is considered a Russian intelligence vessel and has been observed in recent years by western militaries loitering near undersea cable routes.

    Reports from the Centre of Strategic and International Studies, a US foreign policy think tank, have described the Yantar as being equipped with submersibles capable of cutting or tapping into undersea cables."

    https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2024/1113/1480768-russian-warships-observed-by-defence-forces-south-of-ireland/



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    LNG terminals were the solution for Germany, they will have to be the solution for Ireland too. The alternatives are even more unpalatable to the Greens.



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