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In the event of united Ireland could DUP attract a significant vote in the Republic / 26 Counties ?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Well, pretty much only 30% of the population in Northern Ireland have ever expressed a wish for a united Ireland, that supports my position, as it probably represents the proportion of that regressive Irish culture.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭Suckler


    That's not the argument though.

    And still offers little to make your opinion a fact. This is simply trying to make the stats you have seem relevant.

    Had the GFA failed I could see the numbers changing. But we've had a quarter of a century of peace and equality in a place that witnessed over thirty years of violence and, since it's inception, inbuilt government driven sectarianism. The majority of people would contend with the status quo over the disruption of a United Ireland. Added to that, the generation(s) that have grown up and currently growing up in the current Northern Ireland are not bound by the simplistic Republican/Unionist divide you crave.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I don't crave the simplistic Republican/Unionist divide. If I lived in the North and had a vote, first preference would be Green, second preference Alliance.

    I fully support the Northern Irish identity. In fact, I see a federal or confederal solution, which maintains the existing border, as the only possible outcome of a united Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭Suckler


    Again, it doesn't; it's cherry picking a stat to fit a different argument.

    The original point about culture and the divide/differences you wish to perpetuate are not the same as the border poll percentages, but your argument about that was simplistic point scoring - "if he says black-I'll say white"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I don't wish to perpetuate divides and differences, I want to embrace multicultural divides and differences and allow them to flourish, and consign thoughts of territorial single nationhood to the dustbin.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭Suckler


    I don't wish to perpetuate divides and differences

    Yes you do, You've done nothing but tell us that (despite the obvious links/similarities and devoid of detail) you're now certain "We don't have a single shared language, culture, history and tradition any more."

    You've trotted out a few examples to make it seem like a - "England good/Ireland Bad" analogy.

    What country, including your beloved UK, is beyond reproach in their historic actions/decisions? I'll happily contend that the ROI is not perfect, but, and this is where experience rather that wiki cherry picking is key, of what was permitted and supported in NI by successive Westminster regimes, wouldn't have played out to well for us had we remained as part of the UK.

    But yeah, tell me about "culture" again.

    consign thoughts of territorial single nationhood to the dustbin.

    Or "I don't like the idea of it so I'll exacerbate all and stretch tenuous mistruths to dismiss it".

    It's feet stamping 'toddler-esque' argument stifling for the sake of point scoring.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Sadly you still don’t get it and insist on defining ‘culture’ as the the things you agree with/like.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    That is exactly the definition of shared culture.

    As I said already, we don't get to choose our heritage, that is in the past, but we do get to choose our culture in the present.

    If you want, we can talk about our shared heritage of violent republicanism, of Magdalene laundries, of persecution of homosexuals, of the marriage bar, of the harsh laws on abortion and divorce, of the insular protectionism that condemned millions to emigration, but while all of them are part of my heritage, none of them are part of my culture.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Orange marches, the Wolfe Tones, The RTE Philharmonic, Seamus Heaney, Micheal Longley, etc etc, all a part of your culture, you can pick and choose what you like/disagree with, which is fine but that is all you are doing.
    Nothing to stop you denying the Magdelene Laundary part of your heritage, many chose to do that for many years. Still was a par of our heritage though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I do not identify with Orange marches or the Wolfe Tones, that means they are not part of my culture.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I could not care less what you ‘identify’ with. It isn’t a prerequisite.
    The culture of the island is yours, mine and all who live here. Tourists can come sample the ‘culture’ and have no need to consult you or me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,616 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    And what has that to do with the price of bread? Tourists can also go and sample Scottish culture without asking anyone, or go and sample the culture of Sicily or Bali with asking anyone….just as anyone can wander up and down O'Connell Street (once one of the nicest main streets in Europe, and also the widest main street in Europe ) and chat to anyone, even druggies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    An advocate for monoculture, requiring everyone to conform to the norms that they require. How traditionally paternalistic nineteenth century can you get?

    There is no single culture on this island. There isn't even a single heritage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    There is a 'culture' on this island and you are part of it like I am.
    The bits you don't like or don't identify with are immaterial just as the bits you like are.

    A Spaniard might vehemently dislike bullfighting but it is still a part of Spanish culture.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,616 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    So do you support Basque and Catelonian struggles for independence on the Iberian peninsula? Or are you for a united Spain, if not a united Iberian Peninsula as the Spanish-Portuguese border is yet another man-made abomination anyway?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭Suckler


    Collective & shared Irish culture doesn't automatically means it's transferred individually; to be fair the below statement I'd agree with, and I'd be in the same boat - not part of my individual culture but I recognise them as part of Irish culture.

    There are no singular elements of Irish culture that everyone is in equal agreement with; but that still doesn't make them a part of Irish culture.

    This puts it better than your original I think.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    There are no singular elements of Irish culture that everyone is in equal agreement with

    This goes without saying so readily observerable is it. Huge crowds will go to one type of cultural activity while others are minority interests.

    I accept that things I don't like/agree with are parts of my culture/heritage though and those who wish to pursue them have every right to do so.

    blanch/francis are trying to exclude while accusing others of favouring monocultures.

    You could not really see a better example of dis-ingenuous debate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    There isn't a "culture" on this island, there are many cultures.

    Some families have a culture of participating in Irish music, some don't. Some families have a culture of speaking Irish at home, some don't. There is no uniform culture, there is no monoculture, as you so wish.

    There are cultures on this island that see themselves as primarily British, there are cultures that see themselves as primarily Northern Irish, some of them have no Irish culture, yet you deny them their rights to individual cultures.

    There is a shared heritage, because what has gone before, has gone before (even if there are different interpretations of that heritage), but culture is a living thing, culture is a many-faceted thing, and there is no single aspect that you can point to as an Irish culture.

    You mentioned bullfighting, saying it is part of Spanish culture. That statement is wrong, it would be correct to say that bullfighting is a part of culture for many Spanish people, because equally, there are many Spanish people who are horrified by it, who reject it as part of their culture. Your statement imposes bullfighting into people's culture, many of whom reject it. There are people who would say that fighting and drinking are part of Irish culture, do you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    All those things are a part of our culture.

    You can embrace that fact or you can try to exclude some of them based on your own beliefs as you are doing. That is the preserve of the classic monoculturalist.

    That attitude will also find sympathy with those who object to equal status for the Irish language. It’s no coincidence you are vehemently opposed to giving it that status The cultural violence continues long after the colonist is gone, as the article posted earlier suggests.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,616 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    "Culture" can be defined ( the first definition that came up ) as "the arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively."

    Interesting word "culture".

    The culture of these islands are well mixed up, we have been going over and back for many centuries. Our greatest architecture is probably British, and as for music, we as a country in decades past have bought many Beatles and Oasis music, as they have enjoyed our U2 etc. In fact some of the people there in those groups have roots in the other island.

    You can dance with DeValera at the cross-roads if you want to. Most people in that era voted with their feet and left. Many of those who stayed watch and consume British media (eg Norton, Coronation St, etc), follow English football clubs etc.

    This thread should be closed anyway as the OP's hypothetical question has long ago been answered. A bit like asking the Germans 90 years ago if there was a united Germany-Poland would the Jews attract a significant vote. Silly talk.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭Suckler


    Tell me you don't understand the word 'culture' in 100 words.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,616 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    My replies show I have a better understanding of it than you do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭Suckler


    Of course they do……I mean you even had to go to the dictionary to start with….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


     Most people in that era voted with their feet and left.

    For starters this is just sensationalist nonsense. Most people stayed. 16% emigrated in the 1950's.

    It is estimated conservatively that 2 million left during the 1850s and it wasn't Dev in power.

    And again, nobody here is saying anything about the consumption of the output of other cultures, we consume British and American and other European cultural output, totally normal in an outward looking culture, we also contribute to those cultures who have no issue with the contributions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,616 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Germany had an Empire as well, as had the other European mainland countries. If it was that easy to stand up to Germany, Austria etc, why did France, Holland, Belgium, Norway etc not do so? I still disagree with the post "we owe our freedom to violent Republicanism." What rubbish. The farmers murdered and disappeared in west Cork or Jean McColville in Belfast or the victims in the mother and baby homes here did not get much freedom.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭Suckler


    The point, which you again missed, was that England were not as 'alone' as you and daily mail readers would have us all believe.

    As for Britain gaining her much lauded empire, you also missed the comment on how that was achieved……but again who's surprised by the cherry picking and blinkered historical inaccuracies you continue to trot out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    When you are reduced to claiming De Valera was a success for forcing 16% of the population to emigrate, you are losing the argument.

    Let's face it, the Ireland that arose out of violent republicanism was not a nice place to live for a long time. Credit to those in FF (e.g. Lemass) and FG (e.g. Fitzgerald) who saw the light in the 1960s/1970s and peacefully worked to bring a better Ireland while others tried at the same time to tear it down (e.g. Adams, McGuinness).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭Suckler


    When you are reduced to claiming De Valera was a success for forcing 16% of the population to emigrate

    Except, that's not what he'd "claimed" and you know it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    And the 'alter what was said' disingenuousness continues.

    Absolutely scurrilous debating.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭Suckler


    You can dance with DeValera at the cross-roads 

    I nearly forgot to highlight you echoing the words of that sectarian bigot Taylor.

    That you and your comrade in revisionism see that as completely acceptable is quite telling.



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