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In the event of united Ireland could DUP attract a significant vote in the Republic / 26 Counties ?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I agree. The taunt is water off a ducks back really, but those who engage in it will never get it, or will keep on pretending the point has some significance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Culturally united is a stretch. That would require communications over distance. There were distinct cultures across the country.

    The substance of the point is that the English or the British, depending on your nomenclature, didn't suppress a united nation, as the folk understanding of "800 years of oppression" pretends.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,430 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    First of all, I think this "folk understanding" exists only in your head. Most people who have any interest at all in the question are well aware that centralised policitical authority in Ireland - the High Kingship - was extremely weak; token, evenl that Ireland was politically divided into tribal-based kingdoms.

    But that doesn't mean that Ireland wasn't a nation; it means that it wasn't a (single) state. It certainly was a nation, and was considered a nation at the time. We have abundant references from this period to Ireland as nation (references by people who are not themselves Irish, so it's not a case of wishful thinking.)

    Why was Ireland a nation? For the reason already given; a shared language, culture, history, tradition, etc, distinct from the language, culture of other nations. For exactly the same reasons Germany was a nation, and spoken of as a nation, at this time, despite their being no united German state. And there are many other examples; the identification of "nation" and "uinitary state" is a very modern phenomenon.

    Britain, by contrast, wasn't a nation. Not because of political disunity (though it was disunited) but because of cultural diversity. The Enlish, the Scots and the Welsh simply didn't have a sufficient shared history, culture, etc to consider themselved a single nation, or to bo so considered by others. Historically, the British nation is a much, much later arrival than the Irish nation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    One of the tools of the colonist is to disrupt the indigenous culture, all colonists did this to one degree or another and the British did it here. primarily but not exclusively, by the disruption of the indigenous language, the primary vehicle of culture.

    Language is by no means an arbitrary fact of the world, similarly, it is also not any arbitrary fact of colonialism. We ought to consider it as another form of violence imposed upon cultures by colonial rule, as devastatingly treacherous as any other. Of course, there is an obvious distinction between physical and linguistic subjugation, and the previous claim is not to erase this in any element. Linguistic violence itself persists long past the departure of the colonist, it is a violence committed against a very culture, one from which it may never fully recover.

    Those who downplay the importance of keeping and reviving the native language are identified in the bolded bit. Along with the 'Ireland was never united until the British came' taunt, they are performing as they were meant to, it's no coincidence and is a hangover of the inferiority complex colonialism worked hard to bestow.

    Linguistic Imperialism: Colonial Violence through Language



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 183 ✭✭Mannesmann


    The last time Unionist candidates ran in an Irish election they got one seat in Dublin South.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,616 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    110 years ago etc Ireland was a single entity within the United Kingdom. If that doesn't count as a nation then neither does England.

    If you go back a good few centuries before that, Ireland was divided- with various clans etc fighting for power and territory. There doesn't seem to have been any individual who had total control. Some would say Boru seems to have come closest, athough he may have achieved this momentarily before dying.

    The O'Neills ruled a lot of Ireland at one stage, but there always seems to have been opposition from other provincial kings.

    Anyway back to the topic of the thread which the OP asked: "In the event of united Ireland could DUP attract a significant vote in the Republic / 26 Counties"….the OP is assuming that in the hypothetical case of a UI it would be a peaceful one and one where unionist views would be respected and tolerated. The last time the British left (just over a century ago) many Protestants were burnt out, murdered, disappeared, intimidated, forced to leave. It would be a brave DUP person who would stand for election in the 26 counties, when you remember the intimidation that protestant FG politician Billy Fox got in Monaghan before being murdered….and he was not even DUP. Just being a Protestant and only a soft republican (or maybe just a neutral) was enough to get himself labelled as a Black 'n Tan in the Dail by FF politicians there. That all happened in living memory.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    By that logic, the island of Ireland is no longer a nation.

    We don't have a single shared language, culture, history and tradition any more. There are arguably three different nations on the island - Irish, Northern Irish and Unionist.

    That makes future unity problematic. The reality of plantations bringing a different culture as in other countries as well as 100 years of separation must be accounted for.

    We can't go back to where we were.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Irish, Northern Irish and Unionist.

    All 3 are part of my heritage and culture.

    'Culture' is more complex than the simplistic view you have,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    But there are members of each that consider themselves distinct and unique from the others. There are others e.g. British/Unionist and Northern Irish that see themselves members of two of those but not the other. Culture is exceptionally complex and doesn't lend itself to simplistic solutions and outcomes.

    The most simplistic view of culture is that there is a single and distinct Irish identity on this island that requires a united state.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Musicians consider themselves distinct from other musicians, but they are all part of the culture of a place. The Wolfe Tones, who you would decry are a part of your culture just as Orange marches are a part of mine.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I consider neither the Wolfe Tones nor Orange marches to be part of my culture.

    The Wolfe Tones only had one decent song, written by Liam Reilly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Well that is just denial again similar to Unionist denials, which will be another touch point on a UI.
    You don’t need to agree with or even like something for it to be a part of your culture.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    This is the thing about good republicans. They deny others the right to decide their own culture. They impose their monolithic view of culture on others.

    For example, violent republicanism is part of your culture, you have embraced, excused and supported it. It is not part of mine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭Suckler


    That's a misrepresentation of what was said; "Sufficient shared culture" was the term; Find me one Irish shared culture that every Irish person considers part of "their" culture. Or German/Dutch/Polish etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    My point is that there certainly isn't any longer a sufficient shared culture (and that reference wasn't used directly in respect of this island) on this island to claim a single identity. There are at least four separate identities: Irish, British/Unionist, Northern Irish and Irish Traveller.

    There may well be shared heritage, but that is in the past, and those that look backwards will look to that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You owe your freedom to ‘violent republicanism’, the ‘republic’ you live in was born out of violence perpetrated by the Irish and the British, it’s a part of the culture and heritage of us all, including Unionists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭Suckler


    In your opinion you mean. Shared culture goes beyond your narrow select viewpoint.

    By that metric; every nation is equally invalid. But that's not the reality of this, or any, nation.

    Edit: The term was used directly in the discussion of other nations for comparison; it's entirely apt.

    sufficient shared history, culture, etc to consider themselved a single nation,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Once again, I am being told by someone else what my culture is, in a way that flies in the face of the facts.

    If everyone in Northern Ireland held your view of what being Irish means then we would have had a united Ireland decades ago. They don't.

    When good republicans wake up to the reality that not everybody on this island is Irish and that they can't impose their monolithic view of Irishness and identity, then we might begin to have a realistic discussion on the future of this shared island.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭Suckler


    Once again, I am being told by someone else what my culture is, in a way that flies in the face of the facts.

    No your aren't. And your "facts" are your summary assumption that you are "certain" there isn't sufficient shared culture, whilst being entirely light on any demonstration of that. Om the contrary, you are the one dictating the self perceived, separation of narrow groups that you are certain prevents a nation being formed of two small communities on a small island.

    If everyone in Northern Ireland held your view of what being Irish means then we would have had a united Ireland decades ago. They don't.

    It doesn't require everyone to want the exact same thing. Otherwise we wouldn't hava a nation and there would be no such thing as a nation anywhere else.

    When good republicans ….

    If all else fails go with the labelling.

    they can't impose their monolithic view of Irishness and identity, then we might begin to have a realistic discussion on the future of this shared island.

    Again; nobody has stated in reality this would be the case but you now have to run with this narrative.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You are mistaking ‘liking/ agreeing with parts of your culture’ with the culture.of a place. Daniel O’Donnell’s music I hate, it’s still a part of our culture here though.

    You don’t understand the subject.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,616 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Wrong. In relatively recent times I know of a constituency where a brave unionist ran but only got 100 or 150 votes : his family got so much venom from Republicans they were forced to put an add in the local paper stating that they did not share his unionist views.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,616 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    How patronising of you to claim to someone "you owe your freedom to ‘violent republicanism". I do not thank "violent republicanism" for anything because I know what misery it caused in so many families.

    N.B. If we owe our freedom to anyone, it is to the British for standing alone (with the Commonwealth) against Nazism in 1940 : we could be speaking German now otherwise (those of us not Jewish, gypsies, homosexuals, handicapped etc).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭Suckler


    N.B. If we owe our freedom to anyone, it is to the British for standing alone (with the Commonwealth) against Nazism in 1940 : 

    It's easy to stand "alone" (bless your innocence) with an empire behind you. I suppose the Commonwealth was created with sheer pleasantry and agreement of colonialism on from all sides of the "agreement". The "alone" is very selective to say the least but who's surprised.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Such paternalistic nonsense, telling me what I owe my freedom to.

    For decades, people in Ireland were less free than those in England. We had more restrictive censorship laws, more restrictive laws on sexual freedom, more restrictive laws on women etc. "Freedom" isn't what you think it is.

    Violent republicanism may be part of my heritage, but it isn't part of my culture. My culture has risen above 19th century notions of statehood and political violence. That your culture stays rooted in that dead past says more about you.

    You can't escape your heritage, but you can create your own culture.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    From 1967, you could be free to be homosexual in England, in Ireland we had to wait until 1983.

    So much for your superior freedoms that we obtained.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,746 ✭✭✭✭L1011




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Thanks, I could also mention abortion, divorce, women in the workforce, censorship of books and films. So much for the great achievements of violent republicanism, as ordinary people, we would have been more free inside the UK.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭Suckler


    Again, you're (conveniently) straying from your original argument.

    None of my posts stated anything about (A) England (B) conditions being better/worse in either.

    But seeing as you mention it; in 1967 in Northern Ireland I was certainly not as free as my Unionist neighbour.

    So much for your superior selective freedoms that you celebrate and encourage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I was responding to an unenlightened poster who appeared to think that we were all miraculously saved by the actions of violent republicanism in 1920. In fact, they condemned the Irish people to decades of insularity and loss of personal freedoms.

    My original point remains. There is insufficient shared culture on this island to justify a united nation, and it is insulting to those whose culture is different to insist on a united Ireland.

    Secondly, those who cling to the idea of a united Ireland are stuck in 19th century ideas of nationhood and violent republicanism. They share many characteristics with those who yearn for the restoration of greater Russia, and those on either side of the Israeli/Palestine divide who look for a one nation solution.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭Suckler


    I was responding to an unenlightened poster ….

    You responded to my post which contained none of that.

    My original point remains. There is insufficient shared culture on this island to justify a united nation

    It's not the cast iron fact you assume it to be. Its a fairly weak opinion to suit a point scoring exercise.

    Secondly, those who cling to the idea of a united Ireland are stuck in 19th century ideas of nationhood and violent republicanism. They share many characteristics with those who yearn for the restoration of greater Russia, and those on either side of the Israeli/Palestine divide who look for a one nation solution.

    Again your assertion is a misguided opinion and only that. You've decried people "telling you what your culture is" yet you're the first to label those with different opinions as simple minded violent Republicans.

    It seems that's the "enlightened culture" you prefer.



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