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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,122 ✭✭✭Shehal


    No France do not have better quality centres, the the French squad they only have Fickou that would make the Irish squad…Costes is a good up and coming player but not quite test ready.

    That's why Frisch makes a French squad but doesnt make an Irish one.



  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So, if we had a 7-1 bench then we would have called him up to a training camp in 4 years. Sure, convincing argument.

    I get it if Farrell thinks that but he can't do that and also complain about depth. He obviously has a narrow selection policy that goes beyond the depth available.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,398 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    No, that wasn’t my argument, but I strongly suspect you already knew that.

    My argument was we don’t play a style of play that he’s suited to. He is well suited to the cumbersome, forward heavy gameplan the South Africans play.

    That’s why I’m arguing he’s of more value to the South Africans than he is to us.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 7,096 ✭✭✭Buddy Bubs


    The word Frisch has lost all meaning I've read it so many times ! Jeez lads, it's a moot point will ye stop and talk about something constructive. He's gone



  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You said bang average and decent ish. So if Frisch is bang average, then Kleyn is decentish.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,075 ✭✭✭Former Former Former




  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sure, but he has ALOT more value to South Africa than to us apparently. He wasn't good enough even to make a training camp for us for years. That's way way lower than their evaluation. That does not line up with us having a depth problem.

    I also know for a fact that if he wasn't eligible for SA again, you'd get laughed out of here for suggesting he would make their squad.



  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Then how do we have a depth problem if we have decentish and bang average players being selected by the deepest countries in the world..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 134 ✭✭jim Dempsey


    Nz have scarred and tarnished both bod and sextons careers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,991 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    I think Ireland have quite a lot of players who could be good enough. It's just with only four pro teams the number of players actually playing provincial rugby consistently is quite low compared to the number of English-qualified players playing for their 10 teams, or the number of French-qualified players playing for their 14 teams, or the number of SA-qualified players playing for their 4 URC teams plus all the SA players playing in Japan, France, England and Ireland.

    I would be an advocate of considering for selection IQ players playing for non-Irish URC teams. None of SA, Wales, Italy or Scotland have the money to tempt away Ireland's top players, and it would increase the playing pool. Ireland are keeping Kleyn warm for SA. What if a Tommy O'Brien moved to one of the SA URC franchises and developed as an option for Ireland, freeing up Leinster space to develop another option for Ireland, and also taking development minutes away from a South African player at the SA franchise, thereby making SA ever so slightly weaker relative to Ireland?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,398 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, that’s entirely consistent with me saying I don’t think he seems to be a fit for how we play and how much ball handling and carrying we want from our locks.

    Why else do you actually think Farrell, O’Connell, Easterby and Co actually didn’t pick him? It’s obviously because they don’t think he’s a fit for what they want.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,122 ✭✭✭Shehal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,075 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    It would help if you’d read the thread tbh

    Like I said hours ago, our depth problems are not uniform and never have been. Like I said hours ago, if Farrell lets test level props or half backs slip through the net, come back to me. Like I said an hour ago, everyone knows it’s not a uniform problem but if people want to pretend otherwise, sure grand.

    If lads like Frisch and Kleyn are the biggest misses that people can point to, then I’ll call that a job well done by Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,122 ✭✭✭Shehal


    "We will never, ever, be able to produce players in the quantities that our main rivals do; SA, NZ, England, France are always going to have to more players than us so we have to make the best of what we have."

    Was the start of you're original comment, and yet it was pointed out 2 players that weren't good enough for Ireland being capped by 2 of these nations you mentioned. You could just be the bigger man and admit you are wrong but of course no, now you are moving the goalposts as its more important you are right than actually coming to a consensus of what's actually going wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,122 ✭✭✭Shehal


    During the press conference before the World Cup warm ups I know POC was saying Jean Kleyn was "brilliant" in most area's he pointed out…until asked about his balls skills where he simply said "he's really improved". That sounded like a nice way of saying "he's improved but still not good enough for what we want".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,563 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Kleyn is good enough for a team that has won back to back Rugby World Cups. Whatever he's doing and whatever SA are doing it's working for them



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,398 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, but we don’t have the forwards to play the sort of game they play and we likely never ever will. Just because he’s a good fit for that system doesn’t mean he is for us.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,653 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    It would be brilliant if Munster could develop some more top quality players, if only to stave off the same tired complaints about average Munster lads not getting picked. There's not a snowball's chance that Frisch was ever getting capped for Ireland. There's 5-6 players right now who are better, before we even look at some of the talent coming through from the u20s. Frisch just the next name up from rolodex of aggrieved Munster fans, having exhausted Kleyn, Healy, Coombes, Haley etc al.

    Biggest take away from the match is that we clearly can't beat NZ unless Carbery is in the 23.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    At the end of the day the team selected was good enough to win but they were flat as a pancake, had terrible handling and a practically non existent line out.

    I don't care that much about selection but every single coach failed



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,653 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I'd really question the logic of having them first up, really would've been smarter to build up to them. They were bang average, and we just handed them the game. So annoying given we won't get another crack at them for years, and they get to keep talking trash after the WC



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 7,096 ✭✭✭Buddy Bubs


    They don't talk trash at all. What trash are they talking? Are you talking about Reiko and Sexton? Such overblown nonsense. Soap opera level nonsense.

    They knocked us out of the last 2 world cups in 19 and 23. And they won the 2 world cups before that.



  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I mean that's true. We pick more narrowly than other major countries and we pick narrowly to a system.

    But that doesn't mean we have bad depth. If you gave Farrell French depth he'd pick less players than France do now. He shouldn't be talking about depth when he obviously doesn't value it as much as those other countries. Like NZ and England will happily capture cap guys and they have more 'depth' than us. We just don't value it as much. Which is fine but it cannot be an excuse when we lose. It can't. Its disingenuous.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,887 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I have no idea how the schedules are set to be honest but wasn't our great year and half run set off by a relatively unexpected win first up against NZ in the autumn?

    It's not ideal but it's not really an excuse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,653 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Am I completely misremembering that autumn or didn't we have Japan and Argentina up first?



  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yea we have plus plus plus plus depth at lock where someone like kleyn who is good enough to play in a world cup final for south africa, a country famously bad at producing locks… but he can't make a SINGLE irish training camp in four years.

    And this is something i'm supposed to find believeable? That we are really into creating depth? I'm not dumb. Stop trying to feed me nonsense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,370 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    South Africa aren't that much better than us if they're even better at all. It shouldn't be that controversial that Andy Farrell and the coaching set up think we have four locks better than Jean Kleyn. Especially with how we play.

    There are players in that team I'd love to have in ours. But from a depth perspective I don't think we have much need for any Springbok lock other than Etzebeth.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,398 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    South Africa pick more narrowly than anyone - they had the oldest squad at the RWC and still rely really heavily on that same core all the time.

    No tier 1 team awarded fewer new caps between the 2019 RWC and the 2023 RWC than South Africa.

    Once again - telling us what France do isn’t in any way convincing or compelling. There is no bigger underachiever in world rugby than France, so whatever they’ve been doing they should strongly reconsider it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,563 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Very hard to compare SA and Ireland as we play in different championships but one thing that is beyond question is they can be successful in a Rugby World Cup, we can't break the QF duck



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,398 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, it’s almost like all these countries have different systems of play and different levels of playing depth.

    The constant reference to the QF is the single most tiresome reference in Irish sports, and the last refuge of people who’ve run out of actual substantive points to make.



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  • Posts: 12,836 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I see the Kleyn, Frisch & Healy talk is now just Kleyn & Frisch.



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