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USA 2024 presidential election

1697072747577

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,462 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    And again thank you for making my earlier point for me- this is exactly the kind of snooty "talking down" to voters and its wearing very thin now- it's what also saw the Democrats absolutely hammered by Trump this week. People feel poorer because they are- it's not an illusion because they're too stupid. You and the likes of you can quote and roll out all the fancy Harvard economics professors you like to lecture us about how wonderful things are and how stupid people are for not realising, but if your real wages only grow a few % per year (as does your tax bill) and you go try buy a new car and it's 30% dearer, grocery items 40% dearer you feel worse off and the things you once too for granted are unattainable. Trump and his campaign absolutely tapped into that and made hay as a result. Harris had no answer to it because she couldn't stand over her record



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Snooty "talking down to people" seems to be just giving people facts which are a bit too nuanced for a simple soundbite, and which are not what the people want to hear. They want to be given comforting simplistic lies. They don't want to be made to actually think about reality. A guy like Trump, a consummate grifter, knows this in his bones. He knows he can just bullshit and gaslight his supporters and they will fall for it over and over.

    What's the solution? Lie harder than Trump? Ramp up the xenophobic and racist rhetoric even more than Trump? I don't think that would work either. And while the Democrats can try to reach out better, and communicate better, the Republicans will be just double down on the Steve Bannon style propoganda, and whip up a storm that is difficult to beat with facts and reality. Until the American people can see this for themselves, it won't change. They could end up like Russia, absolutely brainwashed by officially sanctioned media mouthpieces.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,616 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Yes; so let's sum that up. People who are proven to have had a greater salary increase, and less inflation, than their comparable economies, FEEL worse off which is natural. The actual fact that it affects everyone globally suffered, and that the "solution" of a Trump vote will make then even worse off (as already proven by the inflation bomb that Trump created by giving away borrowed money in an overheating economy first time around) does not matter because people are to stupid to understand that they need to look beyond the next 5 minutes for consequences. Well guess what; turkeys voting for Christmas celebrations and they will FEEL those consequences as well except they will not have the capability to actually understand the connection that Trump's economically policy is a) worse for them and b) Trump caused an inflation bomb that hit them in the first place. Congratulations; they reap what they sow though as you've clearly stated they are to short sighted and stupid to realize what that means. Getting a $10 payday loan in hand from the son of a slum lord without understanding the $150 payback to come and thinking he's your friend for it. Once again; Brexit debate all over again when one side pulls out emotional, factless, headlines without a plan while the other tries to actually base it on actual facts instead. Lesson to learn; lie your teeth out and you get rewarded as a politician; to bad it's the voters who end up footing the bill for it afterwards while complaining about it all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,929 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    Yes this annoys me. Bookies run markets and adapt odds using algorithms. They have zero knowledge. Sure for last 50 years England has been of of favourites for World cups consistently with bookies not because they had a chance but because British media hyped them up and England supporters out bets on. Nothing to do with facts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,013 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Sorry but to say the Democrats have been too focused on transgender issues, when the right wing have been demonizing that community constantly for years is ridiculous. The Democrats position, if one can call it that, is of basic respect and compassion. If that's an issue for people, it tells you all you need to know of that quality of their character.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,462 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Yes keep implying people are evil because they don’t share or indulge an ideology of biological males in their daughters spaces and sports. The democrats should double down on this social engineering stuff- it’ll ensure their complete annihilation for decades to come



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,013 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    People being compassionate are the problem. I could back to the 60s and hear the same sort of complaints about the civil rights movement, or to the 70s/ 80s about gay rights.

    Equality feels like oppression to those in power.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,851 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The 'progressive' policies that she should have been advocating include better healthcare, (do something about medical bankruptcy) the right to paid Sick leave, Paid holidays, Maternity and Paternity leave, free healthcare for all maternity services and for children (it's insane how expensive it is to have a baby in America).

    Reduce the burden on the working poor.

    All of these are hugely popular and taken for granted by people who live in civilised countries.

    Harris was never going to win Trump voters, she should have focused on energising the Democrats and undecided voters by showing them that she was going to make their lives better and not just offer more of the same

    Ban billionaires



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,851 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    People feel poorer because they are.

    This is true. The problem, is that they have voted to make themselves even poorer.

    The Trump economic policies are inflationary. All raw materials that are not produced in the US, will go up in price. All finished products produced outside America will increase in price.

    The stock market might go up, but the purchasing power of ordinary americans will go down, the USD will lose value if global trade switches away from America because Trump's plan will force every other country to bypass the american economy.

    Ban billionaires



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Outside of the gratuitous insults to Christians.

    At some stage or another harris and thr Democrats told key demographics fuc off and enough of them did.

    They actually seem to be doubling down on that and lot of them are tearing strips of Latinos and the working class.

    They are already starting to **** up for the next time in 2028.

    I think that the Democrats could be put out for 3 terms if they don't change. It will take minimum 4 years they have to clear out the activist types, try to make inroads with the working class.

    They'll be all piss and vinegar for the next 2 years at Latinos, young black men and the working class, it is going to be too easy, too tempting to just keep saying but Trump, low information voters etc than change their own approach.

    Try to be less knobbish, less arrogant and listen for a change rather than always preaching and judging, that is the simple yet immense challenge for the Democrats.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,851 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The only people who ever talk about trans issues, are right wing populists engaging in the bog standard 'moral panic'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

    There are no trans people under your bed trying to take your daughters olympic gold medal or place on the local gaa team

    Ban billionaires



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 978 ✭✭✭thegame983


    right wing populists = normal people

    It's an absurd position that pushes normal people away. Keep it up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,851 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Sorry, I meant politicians and media.

    Right wing populists talk about Trans people, then ordinary people talk about Trans people because the right wing populist they are listening to highlighted that issue.

    Thats what the 'moral panic' is.

    The right wing populist wants to distract the public by finding a 'bogey man'. They say 'The left want your children to be raped by Trans people'. The left respond by saying 'What are you talking about, we never said that!'

    and the message received by the 'ordinary people' is that left wing people won't stop supporting Trans rights

    If you don't believe me, look at all of your social media 'mentions' of these key words. I guarantee you, the vast majority of the times Trans rights have been pushed into your social media feeds, have been by people complaining that the liberals only ever want to talk about 'woke' issues.

    '

    Ban billionaires



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    They will expect them to come back to mother church, chastised by the fall out of their sins.

    Look at Gavin Newsom, making a play for the main leader and frankly doubling down on the cranks he needs their votes to be nominated, so the cranks will be safe till them and dominate the Dems



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,181 ✭✭✭eire4


    I could not agree more with your last line there. Certainly economically there is no left in American politics.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This came up in Massachusetts in the wake of the election loss.

    Seth Moulton a long established Congressman said that the loss had a lot to do with the Dems obsessed with not trying to offend people

    He said he feels afraid to say that doesn't want his two girls run over in school sports by a male or formerly male athlete.

    He obviously got lots of push back from fellow Dems and the usual LGBTQA+ people but his response was.

    "We did not lose the 2024 election because of any trans person or issue. We lost, in part, because we shame and belittle too many opinions held by too many voters and that needs to stop."

    Full story here



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,013 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Too many people feel comfortable in expressing their hateful opinions, and they ought to be made feel ashamed for it. Never apologize for calling out fascists and racists, and if you're feeling targeted or made feel embarrassed, then perhaps you deserve it



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    All depends on what you think a hateful opinion is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,013 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Generally anything that Trump and his acolytes talk about is a good example, if you're looking for some.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,462 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    But not everyone has the same opinion and they can’t be forced to share yours no matter how kind/compassionate you believe yours to be. Part of trumps success is that he has a wide range of opinions in his coalition- some are pro choice, others vehemently pro life. Free speech and expression of opinions are core to that. The democrats tend to pounce on anyone not wedded to the “progressive” agenda which is why they are an increasingly radical fringe party



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,013 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Sorry but no. You can't be for a part of Trump's "ideas", as justification for voting for him, and try to ignore the rest. He stands explicitly for fascism, racism, and Christian Nationalism. That's not even touching on him and his personal conduct. There's no equivocating out of that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,628 ✭✭✭✭gormdubhgorm


    This type of hyperbole is precisely why Trump got elected again. It is a lot more nuanced than you care to admit. For instance on your "fascism" moniker.

    To most people a fascist is a leader of a country who wishes to lead an army to start foreign wars through conquest. Trump has an isolationist policy "America First". Trump does not want America to engage in foreign wars, which is a good thing (I believe) as we have seen historically how America have fared with those over the years, and in the recent past.

    "America First" is basically Trump's version of "Buy Irish" back in the 1980's - there was European Case law on the matter -

    https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A61981CJ0249

    Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,220 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Why do you think fascism starts with a leader planning invading armies?

    There's many steps along the way, that's one of the last few.

    And it's nonsense to equate a marketing campaign with a Trump advisor at a Trump rally 10 days before the election screaming about America for Americans only. A ludicrous dismissal of objective reality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,462 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    ah right I see there’s no middle ground with you- everyone who supports Trump is a Nazi etc.

    Without any contrition, The democrats are headed for a very long period of being out of power such is the way trump and the republicans got votes allover the place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭Dogsdodogsstuff


    Only 10-15% of Germans were considered committed nazis when Hitler took the reins. You don’t have to believe in an ideology to support it. And you can’t wash your hands of it if the warning turn out to be true. And extremism usually only has a really small minority of people who truly follow it, they need only convince enough moderates to follow for them to enact their agenda.


    I really hope the people smugly dismissing any talk of “hysterical nonsense on nazis and fascists or extremist Trump ”’are right. But I suspect many of you haven’t really objectively reflected beyond “ha, dems and their preaching getting a good drubbing is so sweet”.


    It’s the same with populism around Europe. Voters are gonna get what they deserve, the warnings are there. Turkeys voting for Christmas , gobble gobble make sure you base me well before you slap on the slow cook setting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,220 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,220 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    It’s the same with populism around Europe. Voters are gonna get what they deserve, the warnings are there. Turkeys voting for Christmas , gobble gobble make sure you base me well before you slap on the slow cook setting.

    100% this is the case. France just avoided in their last elections, but I suspect the German elections next year are going to be a step in the dark direction.

    8 yrs after a Brexit vote that has nearly collapsed their economy. Who's the British politician with the most wind in their sails? Nigel Farage



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,006 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    So the events related below are made up then?

    Or do women in prisons not really count as people?

    What about girls in sport? Don't they count either?

    (As an aside, we're told not to assume someone's gender, yet woe betide the autistic teen who asks the person what gender they are directly - that's wrong too apparently. The bigot.)

    As for the idea that she might be asking because she's afraid of risking injury - well, who cares, they're only women. Some men have decided it's all a moral panic, and men's opinions are what count after all.

    Women’s football teams refuse to play after transgender player injures opponent

    And yes I know those are not all in the US, but that's just a tiny example: there are, if anything, far more such instances over there. In fact if I thought for a moment you were interested in discussing the issue, rather than just dismissing it as rightwing manipulation of silly women, I'd take a little more time and find some of the US-specific ones.

    But to bring it back to the election, the problem is not so much the number of incidents that happen, it's the attitude - similar to what you've just demonstrated - that causes the damage for the Democrats: dismissing genuine concerns that women have by an insinuation that women are being manipulated by men. They couldn't possibly have reached those opinions all by themselves could they? They're clearly been misled by rightwing men into holding opinions that are nonsensical.

    I'm sure you can see that that's really not a great look for a party that claims to be for women.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Seems like he has built a coalition of the working class, Latinos, Asians and young African American men head built that because the Democrats have become a party for those on 6 figure incomes, arguably they built his coalition.

    Vance is going to cement it as a working class party, thr Democrats will hunker down become even more elite and out of touch, driving more voters away. If they are not careful 2036 may be their next chance at the whitehouse

    Trump is the first Latino president.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,462 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Totally agree- given the reaction I’m seeing and hearing they’re going to double down and apparently “fight”, whatever that means. Their funeral



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