Apprenticeship or leaving cert

elydas · 31-10-2024 10:42PM #1

Hi

My son is 16 and is in TY. Currently doing experience in carpentry/ joinery and really enjoying it. He is a bright young man but doesn't find school easy or enjoyable partially because he has severe dyslexia. Should we encourage,/ push/ drag him through 2 more years just to " get his leaving cert" or let him be more content by doing his apprenticeship instead, seen as there is a good chance that this is what he will do anyway.

Mrs OBumble · 01-11-2024 12:17AM

Apprenticeship

Tell me how · 01-11-2024 12:39AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058378712/apprenticeship-or-leaving-cert

Nobody here will be able to give you a definitive answer, I'm just saying that no matter how simple the choice is, it is subjective for each individual involved.

It could absolutely be the case that an apprenticeship is best for your son, there is nothing wrong with them. I started out with an apprenticeship myself and many people have long careers and a very decent quality of life as an outcome of them.

But it is also worth considering future options, and in that respect, having the leaving cert completed may mean that more doors remain open should someone want to try something new or different later. Having completed the Leaving cert can be (I'm saying 'can' here rather than 'is') a requirement for even basic 3rd level courses and just having done it irrespective of the level of the result could mean that that door isn't closed upfront.

As you said, your son doesn't particularly enjoy or excel at school so I'm not suggesting he just has to suck it up and do something he hates but just that the future be considered with a bot of focus (as you are doing). While he struggles at school now, with his dyslexia and because the reality is a lot of people struggle during these formative years, he could find in a few years that he is more interested in different topics and with that interest comes enjoyment and a focus that helps overcome the issues of dyslexia or possibly seeks out alternative ways to overcome it. And if that were to be the case, it would be nice for him to not have to concerned that someone was going to just summarily close the door on his plans.

I had a family friend who was a long term secondary teacher and this topic came up frequently for them and they always said 'just get the bloody leaving' for these reasons.

Would it be possible for your son to work on the holidays and at the weekend while trying to complete school? That might help him feel he is still on the path to becoming a carpenter while still getting through this?

You're doing the right thing in teasing this out, as I said, there's no definitive answer here, including mine.

HazeDoll · 01-11-2024 12:45AM

LCA might be a good fit for him. If your school doesn't offer LCA consider applying elsewhere. An apprenticeship is a great option but I would try to make sure he has a leaving cert.

Hellrazer · 01-11-2024 01:40AM

As someone who has put at least 20 apprentices through over the last 30 years or so in the motor trade - take my advice and get his leaving cert first. Even if he has to apply for exam accommodations - they will really help him get through it.

It will always stand for him if the apprenticeship doesnt work out. Also most of the drop outs of apprenticeships I see happen in years 1 and 2 because they cant put up and live on 1st and 2nd year rates.

1st year carpenter is on €6.84 an hour and even second year is only €10.60 or there abouts - well below the minimum wage rate.

What happens is the young people see their friends earning minimum wage in Tescos, McDonalds etc and decide to drop out to join them earning their much higher wages (compared to their apprenticeship rate) - Ive had leave because teh dole is higher.

Your son really needs to be very wary of these rates for the first few years and think long and hard if he can live on them?

SupaCat95 · 01-11-2024 08:18AM

I can see the arguement from all sides and similar experiences are being had on the wifes side of the family. Both young lads with autism stuggling to fit in with school. One will not go and is keeping bad company dropped out. He has moved from shovelling turf to getting an apprenticeship. He seems to be doing well. He struggles with having his head up backside.

The other is stuggling also at the LCA. He is a great lad under enormous disadvantage but he needs help and he wants to be a tradesman. I want to be there as the uncle with material supports. He is a great guy we just need to find him his niche in life. His Junior Cert was poor but he pushed on ad did it. He is a more solid character than the other lad who was given everything.

There are people for every trade. The traditional school system is great but it is far from one size fits all. Neither of my nephews is particularily academically gifted. So watching this thread with interest as some on the spectrum also.

Hellrazer · 01-11-2024 10:15AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122785348#Comment_122785348

I agree with you - however people also forget that during an apprenticeship there is also the "off the job" training - in college so to speak for between 4 and 6 months per phase.

Ive lost lads who were brilliant with their hands but failed at the college side of things and they all had no leaving certs - you get 3 attempts to pass the exams and after the 3rd failed you are no longer allowed to continue the apprenticeship. Having a leaving cert prepares you for the exam portion of the apprenticeship.Even LCA is better than no leaving cert in my experience.

Jim2007 · 01-11-2024 10:19AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058378712/apprenticeship-or-leaving-cert

If your son suffers from severe dyslexia then all the well intentioned advcie about doing the leaving cert goes out the window because it is tantamount to child cruelty! Forcing a child to do something that is beyond their mental capacity is just not on - it means an other day of misery for them every morning they get out of bed and there are all kinds of mental health issues associated with that kind of thing.

If the lad has a talent and a liking for carpentry then that is where he needs to be, it's not as if you can't earn a good living from it and have a happy life. And who knows, he may well go to college as a mature student one day if he wishes, but it will be his choice.

sekond · 01-11-2024 10:28AM

If he decides to go on to do the LC, do make sure that he has all the accommodations he is eligible for: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/state-examinations/examination-arrangements-for-students-with-disabilities/

https://dyslexia.ie/info-hub/exam-accommodations/

And it might also be worth thinking carefully about the subjects he selects. If he is musical, for example, the LC music exam has 50% on the practical exam, construction studies has practical elements worth 60%, art practical work covers about 70% of the grade. Those sort of subject might take some of the pressure off the written side of things for him.

Upandout · 01-11-2024 08:04PM

All apprenticeships require success at the college part and it is at a higher NVQ level than the leaving cert.

I would caution not encouraging gaining a secondary school qualification. As over the last few years a leaving cert is generally accepted as minimum access to anything including apprenticeships.

There is plenty of education options at further education, NLN, etc that could support them towards it.

eurokev · 01-11-2024 08:12PM

Absolutely both.

Worry about getting a school qualification first.. either the traditional leaving cert or the LCA route.

PLEASE REMEMBER THAT GETTING AN APPRENTICESHIP IS NOT A GIMME. The amount of people that think you just pick up an apprenticeship and wala in 4 years time your magically qualified.....

Half the people I began my apprenticeship with either dropped out or couldn't pass the exams.

If your son wants to become a carpenter/joiner I would imagine there is reasonably difficulty trigometric maths, and an element of science. Use the next few years in school to try and get as comfortable as possible in what areas that his carpentry apprenticeship is going to theoretically examined on, because if he can't pass the exams he is wasting his time unfortunately.

Birdsong · 02-11-2024 03:04PM

As someone who works in the industry and recruits apprentices, my advice would be to complete the leaving cert, either regular or LCA, it doesn't matter.

We would not consider anyone who has not completed leaving cert, for a number of reasons, 16 is too young & will not have the maturity for work place full time , people have done in past but now most school leavers are 18 + , he will be way younger than everyone else.

As others have mentioned there is also an academic side to an apprenticeship, doing leaving cert will prepare for this.

If the apprenticeship for some reason isn't what he wants, if he doesn't have a leaving cert he is snookered. For many it isn't what they expected

elydas · 03-11-2024 02:04PM

Thanks very much for all of the very considered responses. It is a difficult crossroads and a decision that we don't take lightly, partially because myself and his dad are educated to masters degree level and see the value of formal/ traditional education but we also see the daily struggles he has " tolerating" school. We had to give him a significant amount of help with focus/ content for the junior cert and for various reasons including a recent health issue for us, we are not sure if we can sustain this level of support for another 2 years for leaving cert in addition to our own jobs and commitments for our other young children also. Our son is a proven hard worker and my gut is that he will do well with an apprenticeship and should be well able for the college component. A craft apprenticeship is a level 6 qualification and as was mentioned, if he wants to further his education after he has gained his level 6 apprenticeship, he can go on for a level 7/ 8 degree when he is older using this rather than leaving cert route which is after all only one route to further education. I sometimes feel that it is unfortunate that level 6 craft apprenticeships are not valued more highly for the life skill and education that they are. I got an excellent leaving cert and have a masters degree with a solid job but I think most trades people probably earn far more than me!!

I appreciate all the advice especially from various backgrounds/ jobs. Thanks again.

elydas · 03-11-2024 02:10PM

Regarding the LCA, my cousin who is a secondary school teacher would say that if you are heading down the apprenticeship route you would be better get this started rather than doing LCA which is, apart from keeping them in the school system for another 2 years, and the maturity that comes ( sometimes) with age , it is really not worth a whole lot academically. ??

Iguarantee · 03-11-2024 02:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122785607#Comment_122785607

It’s not child cruelty.

It’s an adult making an informed decision for their child, for whom they are legally responsible.

Birdsong · 03-11-2024 02:34PM

Would you consider researching Youth Reach, this is tailored to early school leavers.

Society & work has changed in recent years & I think you'll find it very difficult to get an apprenticeship for a 16 year old. As I mentioned earlier, must are 18 /19 leaving school.

In my time I've recruited people who have done LCA, it's a great programme- I suppose like every thing, depends on the school.

Maybe I'm biased but I would disagree with you that Level 6 isn't valued, its not easily earned and those that achieve Level 6 worked hard for it

mulbot · 03-11-2024 02:36PM

As someone who came through an apprenticeship route, I'd say if he's not up for school and you know he's a good attitude towards work and is focused on what the trade is, let him do it. What's the point I'm stressing him for 2 more years, and ultimately getting a complete failure of a leaving cert - I've my own business and I'd prefer a good apprentice who wanted to start at 16/17 than someone with a very poor leaving cert.

He'll be qualified around the 20/21 year old age, and from my experience those people at that age are far more mature than college goers-(they've been 4 years or so in real world work situations.

Also, there's massive scope and opportunities for self employment in most if not all trades.

elydas · 03-11-2024 03:26PM

Sorry I may not have expressed that how I meant it- I meant that it should be valued MORE because anyone who has worked and studied for 4 years and achieved a level 6 has well earned it hard and it is an excellent qualification. What's unfortunate is that there is still a sense that the leaving cert is the only/ best route to further education whereas it's actually not. Apprenticeships , plc courses etc are also excellent options.

HazeDoll · 03-11-2024 03:50PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122794160#Comment_122794160

I can confidently contradict your cousin.

I have seen plenty of students struggle and fight their way through the JC, getting into all sorts of difficulty along the way. Once they get settled into LCA they quickly find that when the problems of homework and terminal exams are largely removed their abilities and interest suddenly come to the fore. Kids who had written themselves off, academically, sometimes discover a whole range of ability they didn't know they had. That is invaluable.

This doesn't happen for every student, but it happens often enough that we watch out for it with every new LCA group.

The LC is level 5, LCA is level 4 in the NFQ. Many students who complete LCA move straight into a PLC course, and some go into higher education from there.

Don't rule it out. Talk to a career guidance teacher who knows their stuff. Perhaps your cousin is teaching in a school where LCA isn't offered or where it is not well run. I promise you, nobody who has ever come in contact with the LCA program would dismiss it like that when the alternative seems to be dropping out of school altogether.

elydas · 03-11-2024 04:01PM

Hi. Thanks very much for your comments. I wouldn't be worried about the money side of it as he will be living at home and if was in school or college we would be supporting him financially anyway.

elydas · 03-11-2024 04:06PM

Ok. I will look into that more. Thanks for explaining it so well . Do you still think that if a student does an apprenticeship after the LCA that they wouldn't have been better off doing it from the outset, assuming that they are reasonably mature and willing to work hard in their apprenticeship?

Oscar_Madison · 03-11-2024 04:10PM

Both preferably - wonderful to have a craft and skill but the academia of even LC will stand to him in later years and may open doors that would otherwise be closed- crazy I know .

Any supports in place to help people with dyslexia in schools these days? I would have thought there was and certainly if you haven’t already done so do check out charities in this area to see what they can offer you and get any guidance also from Dept of Education in terms of allowances made at exam time - again I haven’t a clue what’s available but would be surprised if there was “nothing” and a damn shame if that’s the case.
Don’t be disheartened if he goes for the apprenticeship now but sit him down and explain what will be involved/ and that it’s not “work” it’s the development of a skill that will get him work just like college is not work and you don’t get paid for that either - he has to realise that this is about him and his future - otherwise he may get sidetracked on quitting and taking a dead end job with just slightly more pay

elydas · 03-11-2024 04:11PM

I have to say that for a child with neurodiversity/ specific learning difficulties e g dyslexia ( not just mild dyslexia but quite severe) it can be hard for everyone - the child dragging themselves through what is a much harder experience than that for students without these difficulties. It's also hard for the parents as you worry about the constant knocking of their self esteem and effect on their mental health ( btw I don't mean this in the " snowflake" way of " I just don't like it" but rather " I hate every day of school and what it entails for me".

elydas · 03-11-2024 04:14PM

There are some " accomodations " in theory but it is still a slog in the everyday sense.

mulbot · 03-11-2024 04:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122794479#Comment_122794479

You get paid during an apprenticeship

Oscar_Madison · 03-11-2024 04:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122794521#Comment_122794521

I know but not a lot - 16 YO’s may not understand exactly the process - as others have said some have jumped ship from an apprenticeship to get twice the weekly wages in a fast food outlet- that’s just crazy and means they just don’t get what apprenticeship is about

mulbot · 03-11-2024 04:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122794532#Comment_122794532

E7. 41 per hour year 1.

E11. 12 per hour year 2.

E16. 68 per hour year 3.

E20.02 per hour year 4.

Mandatory payments from an employer in the construction sector. Decent enough pay while you learn a trade

Oscar_Madison · 03-11-2024 04:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122794547#Comment_122794547

oh totally but especially year one they really need to understand this - they’re getting paid to learn not to work - if they understand this it will be a great journey for them - if I could do it all again I’d consider an apprenticeship - I’ve the highest respect for those who “create”

mulbot · 03-11-2024 04:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122794577#Comment_122794577

Well they're expected to do work, it's hands on learning after all. The first year obviously is that bit harder, that's also why it's important to get in with an employer who understands this, not some place that will "dog" the new guy/girl.

Tell me how · 03-11-2024 05:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122794221#Comment_122794221

What's the point I'm stressing him for 2 more year

The point is purely to help them be in a position where they don't regret not having the leaving later.

Apprenticeships and the jobs they lead to are just as rewarding as many college trained jobs, plus you earn while doing them.

I know because I went that route. But when I wanted to advance my career through degrees, not having the Leaving was not an issue I had to deal with.

I worked with a guy fir a number of years who was fantastic in a particular role. But he needed formal education such as a 3rd level course to permit him to consider different, higher paid roles, that he could never apply for because of industry standards and requirements. Several people have entered the company, gained experience gone on and done such courses, and gone on and gotten the benefits.

This is obviously one anecdotal story, I'm not suggesting this is the case across the board but just to give an answer focused on the "what's the point" part of your post.

If the Leaving cert was possible with a relatively small amount of discomfort it may be something all involved were glad to pushed through with in later years. It may not, it might be too much, unnecessary, unused, or something else no one knows for sure at this point. I have 5 siblings, and all but 1 of us turned our careers in a different direction from what we initially focused on. For us, having the leaving certificate was critical for most of us.

mulbot · 03-11-2024 05:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122794848#Comment_122794848

Absolutely understand this point. However there are ways to get those educational requirements later on, if needed or wanted. Going through an extra 2 years for leaving cert because of a what If situation might not be worth it to a lot of people, I'm not sure of the following situation but if a person did leaving cert, went to college and dropped out say in year 3,in what way would having a leaving cert work or be necessary if they wanted to start from scratch in another course in third level?

Apprenticeship or leaving cert

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