Apprenticeship or leaving cert

Mrs OBumble

I've never understood the 'just get the bloody leaving' mentality.

It might have made sense a zillion years ago, when the end of school was the end of education for most, and having the LC proved you'd got to the end. But, the points you got defined you for life: there's little point in "getting" if if you score a whopping 37 (or whatever) point in total, you'd be a well off not having it as having failed.

And now if you don't have it, there are various mature entry routes to courses for someone who is motivated.

For an immature kid who won't handle being in a workplace, I can see the point of an extra year or two under the supervision of a registered teacher who's paid + trained to put up with the nonsense and teach them to grow up.

But there are plenty of kids ready to put on the adult pants, for whom the workplace experience and learning is more beneficial. And while the 1st and 2nd year wage is low, a low wage is all that a 16 year old needs. (If they're not mature enough to understand that shít wage now leader to a better wage later, then they probably should do the LCA.)

And the big plus is that that the age when most are rolling out of college, trying to find a job with no experience - they've got 4 years of solid work experience behind them.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795300#Comment_122795300

I've never understood the 'just get the bloody leaving' mentality.

It's explained here in a fair bit of detail. And at this end of the conversation, it's not about the points, it's just about having it so the 'not having it' can't be used against you which can still be the case in a lot of instances, both jobs and future career or education considerations.

And a significant thing that people have pointed out is the apprenticeship path still involves classroom work and so for this person in particular, having the confidence that they can get through something may help in preparing for that.

Beefcake82

My 2 cents, perhaps sit down and discuss as a family the benefits of staying for leaving cert vs leaving at end of TY and going into an apprenticeship. Draw up lists of pros and cons for each and do be realistic on the cons of each.

The LC is not for everyone, my youngest nephew and dyslexia and dyscalculia, however he has shown a great aptitude in practical skills even at home such as gardening, baking, cooking, painting of rooms etc. he is only 13. I would imagine that completing TY is in his future and going into a trade as this is something that already appeals to him. But ensure your son has basic skills under his belt, things like communication, standing up for himself etc will be more important to ensure he wont be taken advantage of.

mulbot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795448#Comment_122795448

I would point out, that the classroom work is very directly related to the actual physical trade- leaving cert will entail 6 or 7 subjects, Inc maths, Irish, English, possibly another language etc,, having gone through it, and a leaving cert, I can safely say, the classroom work in the apprenticeship is less stressful,and in my experience the leaving cert curriculum wouldn't have helped at all.

Plus, in the exams for apprenticeships, you're given a few tries, I think 2 or maybe 3 even to repeat the exam

elydas

That is very relevant - the fact that the college part is directly related to what you are doing practically as opposed to learning Shakespeare etc which is a nightmare for lots of kids but particularly those with dyslexia and other difficulties.

littlefeet

Do the LCA.

There is no way around doing the the college part of the apprentiship and he needs the academic foundation to do it, also try and get him to pass his driving test as soon as he can.

I have heard of apprentices calling other apprentices thicks for not passing! It's better to have the best start.

3DataModem

you can go back and get your leaving later.

Saul Goodman 91

My advice is he can always go back and do third level as a mature student, even without a leaving cert. The only downside is that the gruelling nature of the Leaving Cert does prepare you somewhat for third level exams.

littlefeet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122796391#Comment_122796391

They won't being doing Shakespeare in the LCA.

Modern plumbing and electrics is complex it's not as simple as saying the person is good with their hands they will be fine, they have to pass the college placements.

littlefeet

https://www.curriculumonline.ie/senior-cycle/lca/english-and-communication/

Sonics2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122785607#Comment_122785607

This is a mind-blowing ridiculous take.

I'm dyslexic, and one of my best mates growing up was severely dyslexic but he's worked hard and pulled off 2 damn PHD's in his life.

It is not child cruelty to encourage someone to go through with LC.

elydas

There are varying levels of dyslexia. That's why some people with dyslexia don't meet the criteria for an Irish exemption because their dyslexia is deemed not significant enough to make Irish or other languages extremely difficult. Dyslexia on it's own is one thing but it's when it's part of a bigger spectrum of neurodiversity e.g ADHD, autism, dcd etc then school becomes a daily trudge that is not understandable by people who are neurotypical, not even teachers who will mostly admit that their knowledge of neurodiversity is extremely limited and their ability to accommodate for it even further limited. They just don't have the training and sadly,in a few cases in my experience with schools over the years, they often don't have the willingness to learn about it in a meaningful way either. They just teach to the average/ neurotypical despite the fact that there is varying degrees of neurodiversity in every class in the country. Again this is a generalisation but a common report of students and parents who have not fitted into the " one size fits all" school approach.

Toots

I’d encourage him to do some form of the LC, either the LC or LCA. I’ve got a few relatives who are in various trades and from what they’ve said, a lot of places won’t take on kids who haven’t done the LC. My husband is a qualified plumber and even back when he was an apprentice, the company he worked for would only take on lads who had done the LC or LCA.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122785034#Comment_122785034

Great post.

I was veering towards the apprenticeship, but lc in your back pocket is nothing to be sneezed at.

On personal piece of advice, which I actually thought about more from your post, secondary school and college are two completely different things. Flourish in one and find difficult in the other.

Keep the lads options open. He'll only be around 18.

My only concern is if pushed on a decision, and from the ops post I don't believe they will, is that they won't think ahead. Very difficult for a teenager to do.

Be supportive and explain the possibilities. Let them have input. That's the important part.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122795448#Comment_122795448

Re

so the 'not having it' can't be used against you which can still be the case in a lot of instances, both jobs and future career or education considerations.

By that criteria, every foreigner in the country is a problem, because none of us have a "leaving" either. And in 15 years, I can honestly say it's not a problem I've ever had.

To discriminate against someone for not having a leaving-certificate would be leaving yourself wide open to discriminating against someone one the basis of nationality.

mulbot

Question for anyone that can answer--if someone does the leaving cert and then either goes to (A) college, or (B), an apprenticeship, and drops out of either, after say, 2 or 3 years, what happens then regarding having the leaving cert? Can it be used to go back to another college course, or if you left the apprenticeship, can you apply for college?

Nigzcurran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122799396#Comment_122799396

Ah come on now that's a ridiculous take on it. Any employer is entitled to ask for a certain minimum education level without being accused of discrimination

HazeDoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122799427#Comment_122799427

Of course you can. The LC is a qualification, you don't 'use it up' by applying for a course. And incidentally, there's nothing stopping somebody who has completed a college course from undertaking an apprenticeship and vice versa.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122799427#Comment_122799427

Once you 'have the leaving' you have the leaving, the points you gained can be used to apply for any college course no matter what you have done since you achieved the leaving cert.

In fact, as you get older once you get over 25, the points value isn't as much of a factor but from what I've seen, having completed the Leaving Cert is still usually a requirement for any 3rd level type courses mostly because it indicates a capacity to learn at a particular level.

I think this is a very useful image in discussions around education levels in Ireland.

Apprenticeships aren't detailed on the chart specifically but they come under the Level 6 categorization.

AS many posters have said, having achieved the Level 5 (or equivalent for people who may not have been educated in Ireland in their childhood) is frequently a minimum requirement to do further education options.

It's not a hard and fast rule for all education pathways with respect to this. Some people do Phd's (Level 10) without having done a Masters (Level 9) for example and people who go straight from the Leaving cert to different types of degree courses don't ever complete a formal Level 6 training.

But, 'having the Leaving' was definitely a benchmark a lot of courses, and jobs, used to select candidates. My last company required the Leaving Cert even for apprentices specifically because they wanted to know they could handle the more academic elements of the role though that was an engineering type company rather than the traditional trades.

HazeDoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122799396#Comment_122799396

You have a certain level of education though and that is taken into account. It might not be an Irish LC but it has some international standing. Not having an LC and not having any education are different things.

mulbot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122799456#Comment_122799456

So, let's say guy/girls does leaving cert, goes and does apprenticeship for 3 years, decides to leave it, do they just use the leaving cert results from 3 years before to apply for a college course, through the CAO.?

elydas

They would just ask for the leaving cert equivalent from a different country or else another relevant qualification, again the equivalent of the Irish qualification. Once you have the third level qualification/ craft trade then this " overrides" the leaving cert requirement as such.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122799472#Comment_122799472

Wait till you are 23 and apply as a mature student if necessary.

If he does the LC, only do 6 subjects, english, irish(could you get an exemption?), maths, then whatever the current equivalents of metalwork, woodwork and technical graphics.

That or straight to an apprenticeship, I'd recommend that as well but it would be his / your call is he mature enough for the real world yet.

mulbot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122799525#Comment_122799525

Yes, I did my leaving because had planned on going to college, deferred it and started my apprenticeship that year, stayed with it, had I known then, I'd not have bothered doing the Leaving at all

HazeDoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122799472#Comment_122799472

That's it exactly. It happens all the time.

elydas

That is exactly what I am thinking for my son- why struggle to " get a leaving cert" which is level 4 or 5 depending on the result when a trade ( including the technological university part) acheivi g a level 6 on this national framework of qualifications.

He is quite mature and is a hard worker having worked on farms for years as well as in the carpentry trade ( on TY work experience) with both of his employers being very happy with his level of work and dedication. He just really dislikes school and all that goes with it. I don't think the college part of the apprenticeship would be overly difficult for him as he got quite a good junior cert- merits in everything including in higher maths and English. He has an Irish exemption.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122799396#Comment_122799396

It really is not.

gameoverdude

Of course. There are loads of options out there.

If you want to work right after school, decent companies will sponsor you for part time degrees.

Some people are not suited to lc. Something I'm a bit familiar with is TAP(Trinity Access Programme), which I'm very impressed with.

Remember they're only kids. At that age most don't know their arse from their well bent elbow. I certainly didn't.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122799493#Comment_122799493

Exactly. We are talking about someone who is motivated to get a L6 qualification. Which makes a L5 utterly irrelevant.

I've never seem anything which says that having LC is necessary. There are ALWAYS alternatives. And those alternatives are almost always better for kids who don't do well in school: making them slog thru a two year course with high pressure rote-learning favouring exams at the end just isn't the right route for some

sekond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122799793#Comment_122799793

The L5 only becomes 'irrelevant' once the L6 has been attained. Which means that if someone doesn't do the LC (or other school leaving exam - A levels, IB, EB etc), starts an apprenticeship but does not complete it, then when they are looking for work/further study the last thing they can 'rely on' in the last formal qualification they have - for someone in the Irish system, the Junior Cert.

And yes, there are always examples of people who have got by just fine, and in many cases thrived, without having formal qualifications. It just makes things a bit easier if you have them, particularly if you have a change of direction at some point in the future.