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Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,779 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    They have engaged with Unionists who are willing to engage. They cannot force engagement though.

    In fairness to MLMD you need to take on board what she says, even if you disagree. It is not her job or wish to pre-empt what an Irish government plan (in their role as proposers of a UI - i.e. it will be the Irish government holding our part of a BP) might contain. There needs to be discussion among all stakeholders to decide that. SF are a stakeholder not 'the' stakeholder.

    I think you can see some of SF's mature and smart (IMO) thinking re; Brexit. They stood back and allowed the 'government'(not just FG) to take the lead on Brexit.

    Brexit was basically partition coming back ferociously and biting the British and to a lesser extent the Irish government in a way I reckon neither of them ever imagined.
    Brexit's Irish dimension - the complications stemming from partition - almost upended the whole UK project and has done lasting damage to UK politics IMO. As long as partition remains the UK can never be sovereign, that's the bottom line.

    For us here, it finally forced an Irish government to not stand idly by because Brexit represented a threat to the whole country and whatever gains we have made since Independence.

    SF knew that from the off, they challenged Enda Kenny's government who were initially against special status/protocols for NI. By doing that they ensured that the fight against it had to be led by the government here and then stood back. Getting the people of NI to look to the Irish government to protect their interests was a master stroke IMO.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Of all the revisionist histories in the world, your fantasy take on Brexit is the best.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Wow, that is quite a change of plan, SF going to take their seats in Westminister, get a majority and then hold a referendum under the GFA!!!

    If MLMD is promising referendums that she has no powers to grant, she is further away with the fairies than I thought.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,031 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    I really don't understand the support for Sinn Fein. Has anyone from that party come out and denounced and apologised for the atrocious acts they were involved in for many years?

    Anybody from the Republic with a bit of intelligence doesn't want a UI. The amount of money it would take to bring NI up to EU standards as regards public services alone would crush the Irish taxpayer. They would have to find a way around that before a UI should be considered an option.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 324 ✭✭Billy_the_Kid
    Master




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭mikep


    I see it as premature as it pre supposes the outcome.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,779 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Certainly not what I claimed.

    FG opposed in a vote on special status for NI in the Dáil. That motion was proposed by SF and FF.

    Eventually FG were persuaded that it was the only way to protect the whole island, that's a fact of history.

    SF didn't 'pull strings' anywhere, they persuaded and once it was a achieved they largely stood back and allowed the government to act.

    SF showed a maturity and wisdom in doing that, is the point, like they are doing re a 'plan' for a UI. The only plan of worth will be a government of Ireland one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,796 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    stop reading papers that print absolute bollox then



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,796 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    very naïve viewpoint on how a UI should be structured. What 'atrocious acts' exactly? Another southerner casting assumptions on something that happened in their own country that they plainly have no idea about?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,796 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    why would SF take seats in WM? None of their support want that



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    They were left out of all of the discussions, they didn't have an in with anyone, MLMD complaining 24/7 that they weren't being consulted, yet, somehow, the lads in Belfast masterminded the whole thing!!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I didn't say that, the lad that was promising a border poll had no idea what was required for it to be in SF's control.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,779 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Flat out having to alter what was said to voice an objection>
    An objection based on your hate of FG criticism.

    Check the Dáil record and newspaper reports of the period. This should be easy for you to do as it was linked to before when you reacted the same way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,049 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    The outcome will very much depend on what way the re-unification will happen. If I was living in the north I'd have to think long and hard about giving up the NHS for the Irish system for example.

    A minister for unification can make a start on the groundwork, building for what a unified Ireland can look like before any vote takes place.

    It's a bit like what UKIP and BOJO did before the Brexit referendum except it would be an honest and thorough view of what would happen in the event of a vote for unity… Actually come to think of it it's not like it at all

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think FFG don't have any post-unification plans?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭mikep


    I don't know what other parties are planning for post unification.

    The only party with it front and centre is SF.

    Personally, it's nowhere near top priority.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I really hope Sinn Fein put unification front and centre of their manifesto, it is definitely a vote-winner.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,117 ✭✭✭StormForce13


    Any idea when they'll be publishing their "preparedness" document on Global Warming? Because, unlike Mary Lou's wet dream of achieving a UI before Gerry Adams joins Martin McGuinness in Hades, GW is here, now, and it matters



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,596 ✭✭✭spillit67




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,596 ✭✭✭spillit67


    I’m sure most are indifferent as they just vote for the badge and don’t see the value of NI’s voice there (even though it would have been very useful during Brexit…).

    Another bizarre holdover from the Dual Monarchy playbook.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,779 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Ask Unionism or the SDLP what value their representation in WM had during and after Brexit.

    NI didn't matter a damn, all that mattered in the end was that GB got as much Brexit as they could manage.

    But the idiocy of partition came back to bite them.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,779 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You think SF are going to propose a plan and we will have Referendums on both sides based on it?
    That is just delusional.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭Augme


    It's bizarre you don't think SF should be allowed remove BS from the party after his behaviour.

    Posting fact is hardly point scoring. The fact is the majority of FG voters don't want a UI. I don't why you and others refuse to accept that.

    I agree there is no plan for UI. FG and the current government have shown no interest in developing a plan or having or type of discussion on a UI. To ask someone if they'd a UI is just that. It's a simple question to answer. The answer is no from the majority of FG supports, as is their right.

    How would I know? No one has the answers to those questions beause that would involve serious thought and discussion. As I said above, FG have zero interest in having serious thought and discussion on these issues so it will not happen while they are in government.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,031 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Many members were also part of the IRA. Proinsias De Rossa admitted to being an IRA member, Martin Ferris was also a member. We know many others were too.

    Ferris supported the McCabe killers. Multiple times Sinn Fein have defended IRA killings including the murders of children.

    I have never heard anyone from Sinn Fein denounce any of this stuff or say the party no longer supports these acts.

    Until somebody comes forward as a representative of the party and denounces and apologises for their involvement in the IRA and apologises for all the horrific acts committed by the IRA they should have no support from anybody.

    And I'll say that anybody voting for them is either a despicable creature or a very stupid person.

    And I know a lot more about the IRA than most as my father comes from the border. He was there all through the troubles from the 50's to the 70's when he moved to Dublin.

    I love the way you call me a Southerner as if I'm different to you. I'm happy to be different to you northerners and I hope it stays that way for a long time because I don't want to pay horrific tax rates for the billions it would cost to bring NI into the EU.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,596 ✭✭✭spillit67


    How is it naive?

    The reality is that only lower paid earners (as Ireland has such a progressive tax system) from NI would be better off under the South’s tax system.

    Who would fund this?

    Middle and higher earners in NI will be paying more tax all else being equal….will southern tax payers be paying more to cover lowers tax payers in the north?

    Another factor…salaries in the public service. We’d have to equalise these overnight in order to avoid a flight from the north to the south. Again, who funds this?

    How would that work for the private sector in NI who naturally can’t have their incomes equalised with the south.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,596 ✭✭✭spillit67


    I understand why SF refuse to put forward a plan, it’s because they know it will lose them votes when the reality comes out in the wash. After all, the polls show there’s quite a few southern SF voters who don’t much care about a UI.

    But that is not exactly inspiring from the party who claim to be the only one’s who can deliver a UI.

    It seems to be much the same as the other parties in the south….practicalities above all else.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,779 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You would say that of course.

    Doesn't get away from the delusion though. The only 'plan' that will be considered in a Border Poll is one that comes from government and is accompanied with the proposal/question for the voter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Do you actually read my posts?

    Where did I say that SF should not be allowed remove BS from the party?

    Of course SF should be allowed remove BS from the party, subject to process and natural justice.

    It is the bit in bold that you are struggling with. SF are the wrong people to investigate this, it should be the Houses of the Oireachtas, and SF should wait the outcome of that independent process. They way they did it - putting him through a kangaroo court - is wrong. That is my point, address that, and stop pretending I meant something else.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    It is quite ironic that a poster who claims to be a republican member of SF resorts to partitionist language in labelling you as a southerner. I have no problem accepting his bona fides that the North is now different to the South because of what it has gone through. It aligns with my view that 100 years of separation have created separate and distinct identities, and that a shared island must take cognisance of that.

    I also agree with the rest of your post about the PIRA. I have friends who were deeply and personally affected by the actions of those supported by SF and agree that an apology is well overdue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    We all say that, SF know that a united Ireland is a vote-loser, a distraction from the needs of the people, which is why they will only pay it lip service. Refusing to produce their own plan is the real signal on this.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,596 ✭✭✭spillit67


    You seem to be unable to not mention FG here on a SF thread.

    SF position themselves as the UI party and that seems to feed into your child like slavish support for them, where is the plan?



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