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Harris Vs Trump 2024 US Presidential election - read the warning in the OP posted 18/09/24

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Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What would be the point in arguing the definition of fascism with someone who won't say it would be bad if Trump was a fascist?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,857 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Umm,,,, Trump and separation of powers. Now that would be a starter for his version of the 25 plan. Throw in a declaration that any loyalty oath as a requirement to take up a federal job would be to the constitution and not to the president.

    Now any president letting others know that a personal loyalty oath is a requirement he wants them to take, that is as clear an example of fascism that I know of.

    Make it a clear requirement that any president using the prestige of the office to get people vow loyalty to the person holding the office would be committing an offence resulting in the immediate removal from office.



  • Posts: 6,597 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Him and his opus de fanboys are the people organising the GOPs lurch to the right and corruption of justice (stacking the supreme court with Opus De affiliated justices). This is in no way surprising.

    The catholic church has split with a hardcore rump cleaving to Opus De figures and trying to bring in an fascistic administration. These are the same catholic types who roundly supported Mussolini in Italy. These are the same types who tried to form a pact between France and Germany with Hitler in the second world war.

    Dangerous people for all their outward appearance of been mad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,041 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    That's exactly the circle of argument that happens here far too often. That's why I asked the question first.

    It's a handy way of knowing who to interact with - who is debating in good faith.

    Elect a clown... Expect a circus



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,413 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Your response and name calling is indicative of someone without morals or conviction of their position. For your questions to be answered your stance needs to be known otherwise the answers provided will be weaseled out of.

    Running away from the discussion has been noted.

    Trump through narcissistic tendencies, blatant misogyny and incompetence has become an enabler for the far right. There is a lot of parallels with fascism to what's happening.

    But most trump supporters try to handwave this away by highlighting his laziness and low energy.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Trump shows signs of Fascism, the only trait he has that isn't compliant with Fascism is that typically, Fascists, at least outwardly, everything they do, rightly or wrongly, is for the good of their nation in their belief. Trump only does stuff for himself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,467 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It's a red flag isn't it when people claimed to be more upset about people calling Trump a fascist then engaging with the reasons why… he has contempt for democracy, the rule of law and the Constitution. As the last election proved with "find me the votes" and ordering his VP to refuse to certify legitimate election results - Trump attempted to subvert the election result. When that failed, he organised and incited a mob to storm the Capitol building. These are all the actions of a fascist and dictator.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,367 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    I'm still waiting on his definition of fascism.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,439 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    You'll be waiting. Why don't you answer the simple question first?

    Would you have a problem if Trump displayed fascist actions?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'm sure. But what would be the point of explaining it to you when you aren't prepared to just admit that it would be bad if Trump displayed the behaviors of a fascist.

    The fact you won't, and then declare victory because of it doesn't indicate that you want an actual discussion.

    If you want people to define it for you, and explain why they believe the definition applies to Trump, then it's very easy for you to just agree to a basic premise for this conversation.

    Would it be bad if Trump displayed fascist behaviours? Yes or no will be fine.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,467 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    You can ask Robert O Paxton, Mellon Professor Emeritus of Social Science in the Department of History at Columbia University.

    Robert O Paxton, an authority on the historical definition of fascism, argued in 2017 that, despite many overlaps, Trump did not ultimately fit the bill: he was too much of a poser, too lacking in a coherent political programme and too much of a plutocrat. Hitler expropriated the wealthy; Trump sucks up to them. But after the events of 6 January 2021, Paxton changed his mind. In Newsweek a few days afterwards he wrote, “Trump’s incitement of the invasion of the Capitol … removes my objection to the fascist label. His open encouragement of civic violence to overturn an election crosses a red line.”

    If you disagree, exactly what would you call him in light of the facts of January 6th? Well?

    https://www.newsweek.com/robert-paxton-trump-fascist-1560652

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,367 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Just read about what Mussolini did in Italy and what the Nazis did in Germany for 5 seconds and you see how ridiculous it is to call Trump fascist.

    The riot in Capital Hill was a riot, nothing else.

    Larry Donnelly is not even going there on the fascist label and he's against Trump.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Oh I don't think they'd drop him because they think what he's done is bad. I'm sure they knew and/or see it as a positive.

    I think though that if they see this becoming public as damaging to them, they'd consider dropping him, like with the black nazi guy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,367 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    With our own election around the corner I can just see this lot calling anyone they don't agree with it as a fascist. This is where this nonsense leads us. This language comes in here.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So you're saying that Robert O Paxton, an authority on the historical definition of fascism, hasn't read about what fascists did in Germany and Italy?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,467 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I am well aware of what was done, and I have no doubt that the professor cited is aware of it in far more detail than either of us.
    And your response is a non answer which does not explain why the professor is mistaken.

    I have cited an acknowledged expert on fascism who clarified the basis for calling Trump a fascist.
    So nope, the only ridiculous thing would be in dismissing such expert views.

    I think I will go with the opinion of the experts and the documented facts of Trump's attempts to subvert the election result, both through illegal orders and through incitement of violence over your claims which have no standing or foundation. Inciting a riot in order to achieve a political end is a hallmark of fascism, that's not merely my opinion, but that of experts.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    But that's not what people are doing though.

    Also, a reminder, Trump has repeatedly called Harris and democrats any number of things including communists for disagreeing with him.



  • Posts: 6,597 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,332 ✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    Yeah hence me posting it- I wouldn’t be totally discounting it as not impacting on voters decision- America as we know is highly sensitive when it comes to “god” and religion



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,367 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Go away. You're against fascism but won't leave me alone.



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  • Posts: 6,597 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Wait, now you're accusing people of being fascists cause they've asked you a question twice?

    What happened to being concerned about labeling people for disagreeing with you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,950 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    People have called him racist on here loads of times, what is the specific incidents that you guys think make him racist,

    I'm not saying he is NOT .

    I asking what makes YOU conclude that he is racist



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Dingaan


    It’s the usual 'look over there' strategy to distract from their own failures and to shut down debate. There’s a diminishing return on this tactic, and it eventually loses all impact. Real concerns get ignored in the process.



  • Posts: 6,597 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Its up to every individual to decide if Trump reaches the bar of been called a fascist, but if you cant even declare that him been one would be a bad thing - it puts you completely outside the realm of polite political discourse as it reveal which ideology you are batting for.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,467 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Trump's contempt for democracy, the rule of law and attempt to subvert election results through illegal acts and inciting violence is a real concern. Whether you want to call it fascism / fascist acts / enablement of fascism or not. They are not the actions of a democrat, but someone who would govern as a dictator.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,634 ✭✭✭Rawr


    Another factor to consider are the Christain-Nationalists who hang onto the coat-tails of MAGA.

    These are people who wish to convert the offically secular US, into a "Christian Nation" officially. But proponents of this don't nessisarily mean a nation made up of different flavors of Christianity, they very often mean a very specific version of fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity.

    In such a mindset, Catholics are currently tolerated and may be seen as useful allies in the fight against reproducive rights. But given their way, Catholics are no better than Muslims or Jews in thier books. As late as the 1960's, JFK getting into the White House was seen as a novel thing; America's first Catholic President. But prior to this, beyond the likes of the Irish or Italian communities, Catholisism was looked down upon as the religion of poor immigrants and nothing compared to the fine-upstanding churches of "real" Americans.

    Despite their traditional anti-choice rhetoric, the Catholic Church in America has more to benefit from liberal administrations where freedom of religion is respected. Otherwise, the "Handmaids Tale" nightmare world that some MAGA want, is not a world that includes involvement from Rome.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,577 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    The thing is, it's a path to fascism in terms of his approach to everything. He's wanted personal loyalty from the military and the likes of the FBI rather than loyalty to the state. He's got violent thugs that attempted to to obstructed and overturn an election. So there's him just discounting the Democratic process. He's been clear on totalitarian ambitions.

    Fyi, Mussolini was called a fascist in 1924 and responded similarly to Trump, ridiculous really.

    https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-not-adolph-hitler-opinion-1973600



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    For one example of many, claiming that immigrants were killing and eating pets was a pretty undeniable example.

    Do you believe he's a racist?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 561 ✭✭✭CliffHangeroner


    Imagine having as bad a candidate as Trump and yet not being able to beat him in an election. That's exactly what Kamala Harris is facing, the same level of disgrace that Hillary faced. Embarrassing.



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