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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,911 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    Intel Shannon is getting the chop. It was pretty much a gig for IDA funds.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Government are still pressing ahead with it regardless. They know that oil can't last forever and though there will be problems to abandon wind as part of the solution is not wise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,579 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    That is most likely based on the €2bn. the company building the Shelmalere wind plant which is 8.5 km offshore estimated back in 2020 for 1GW, and costs have gone through the roof since.

    I would take that €2bn. with a large pinch of salt. 2019 U.K. cost for 1GW offshore was £2.37bn. (€2.84bn.). Even without the increase in costs since, (16% according to offshore wind companies), that is €105bn. for the offshore 37GW alone without the hydrogen add-ons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 896 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    Christ on a bike. Has this country learned nothing from the Children's Hospital debacle?

    My uncle, RIP (a bit of a mad hatter to be honest) often said that you can vote in socialists, but you'll end up shooting your way out of the communist system they eventually implement.

    It's starting to sound like my uncle wasn't such a mad hatter after all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭ginger22


    Was it Maggie Thatcher once said "the problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money",



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,579 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    That it`s nothing to worry about because it`s other peoples money seems to be the narrative some are attempting to promote. Problem is it`s not. The only people at the end of the day that would be paying the cost is the end consummer, and that cost would be determined by the strike price plus all the extra hydrogen related costs.

    The RESS strike price is €97.87/MWh. With half that 37GW for hydrogen, effectively for the consummer that strike price doubles to €195.87, but it doesn`t end there. With the guarantee to these offshore wind companies that we will pay for whatever they produce, even if we neither need or want it, the consummer will be paying for that on top. Then there is hydrogen, which nobody knows if it will even work to scale, where the consummer will also be footing the bill for it`s production, storage, distribution and the electricity it would produce when burned.

    Being very conservative at present prices I would not see anything less than €250/MWh. A price totally unaffordable for the vast majority and one that would sink our economy out of sight.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭gossamerfabric


    between this and iron air batteries and other such lunacy Ireland is going to have locked in costs for electricity that will drag the Irish economy down for decades to come.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,277 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    So will we be getting nuclear in a few weeks after the election or will it still be the Greens fault we're not planning for it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    What if you let your somewhat reliable infrastructure run beyond it's design life, combine with fuel shortages and growing electricity demand, you are all set for grid collapse. Cubans are currently learning it's not easy to restart the grid from a black start. ESB have a plan in place for black starts, best to avoid them in the first place, if there is substantial disruption (weather events), then load shedding is how they manage it, under the Natural Gas Emergency plan and Electricity Crises: A Risk Preparedness Plan for Ireland. Load shedding large customers is how Eirgrid and ESB manage generation shortages today (and that's under normal weather conditions), organisations fall back to their own diesel or gas generation.


    Coillte joining with ESB to install iron-oxide batteries, means they need land (Like 1.5 MW per acre, that's probably less dense one you consider the site support infrastructure needed, down to 0.5 MW per acre). 248 batteries in shipping containers on 2.9 hectares, capable of storing 1 gigawatt-hour, 100 hours (not quite 5 days) would be a rate of 10 MW/hour. Planning application for Donegal is here, hidden from view. Form Energy is the US company behind the technology. Iron-air batteries have a round-trip efficiency of around 50-60%. Looks like this is an economics play, so far not I'm seeing any mention of the cost per MW/h to make an assessment if this is value for money. Battery storage is about managing short term dips in supply/ surge in demand to allow enough time to bring on generation.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The issue lies with Fingal County Council.

    The government parties have 14 out of 40 seats. With the general election imminent, none of the others want to solve it and blame the government.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,793 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    We currently have about 12GW of power generation installed between renewables and fossils and a roughly 50/50 mix. Average reactors supply up to 1500MW and the most common installation in France is 2 reactors per station.

    So we would need the equivalent of 4 plants to supply the entire country. I can't see this plan passing the planning permission stages here without objections



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,793 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    The planning process is independent of political motivations but if the councilors did have a say I think they would be taking the residents concerns into mind moreso than the airlines

    I got an email from Aer Lingus earlier today

    Hello Indianapolis! Fly from €499 return

    Another route is unlikely to help matters



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,970 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,313 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    You have a few bared faced lies in there, so I will correct one of them.

    Solar Panel sales are down.

    image.png

    Why do you lie so much?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 896 ✭✭✭InAtFullBack


    This surge is equivalent to powering 280,000 homes annually, reduce carbon emissions by 270,000 tonnes, and includes 373MW from domestic rooftops.

    One point from the quoted press release - I see this all the time and this is a prime example of the 'spin' used. Claims of "powering 280,000 homes annually" are continually made about every renewable project, whether it's wind farm or solar or otherwise. If one was to add up all the homes announced in every press release over the years we'd have well exceeded the c.2 million homes in Ireland, multiples of times over.

    Yet, household customers are reliant on generation from gas and other fossil fuels for electricity supply. These claims of X thousands of homes should be called out for the blatant codology that they are. False advertisement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,579 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    It is either written to deceive, or ISEA do not know the difference between installed capacity and the capacity factor for solar panels here. Either of which I would find being a cause for concern.

    That 42.5% surge of 1,185MW installed capacity comes to 505MW. Capacity factor for solar is 11%, so that becomes 56 MW. In 2022 there were 1.8m. households in the state. If this "surge" could power 280,000 households, then all the households in the state only use 360MW.

    Demand is around 5.5GW, so for the ISEA claim to be correct it would mean that household demand is just 6.5% of total demand which is patent nonsense.Even more nonsense when you consider the capacity factor for solar during Winter, when we have highest demand, is half or even less of that 11% capacity factor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Where did €530 million go? The C&AG report into Administration of carbon tax receipts cannot account for it. Carbon tax goes to the central funds.

    Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
    Link to this: Individually | In context

    I asked a question about the €530 million that is missing. That is according to C and AG report, not my report. The Tánaiste quotes the C and AG when he wants to. Deputy Farrell asked questions that had not been answered.

    I asked a question about the €530 million in carbon tax that has been robbed from the people and that was supposed to go back into retrofitting and the Tánaiste went from this pillar to that pillar to the other pillar. It is a case of around the houses and mind the dresser but he will not answer the question. He goes canvassing every day and gets questions he cannot answer. He can only waffle. This is fact. This is from the Comptroller and Auditor General. Do we give up altogether if we do not accept his reports? We are talking about €530 million out of the €1.36 billion collected from people who are trying to survive, carry out their business and travel to work and the Tánaiste tells us all about what is spent here and there. I asked a question about the €530 million that is missing. Tá sé imithe - like snow off a ditch. It does not matter to the Government anymore. The bike shed is chickenfeed according to this. There is €530 million unaccounted for according to the Comptroller and Auditor General. These are not Mattie McGrath's words so spin your way out of that.


    Carbon tax is just another angle to tax our labour while in parallel driving up the cost of living and padding state expenditures. If you wonder about the motivations behind the climate narrative. Look at the vested interests (politicians, ruinable energy, SEAI schemes, eNGOs, media and academia), there is a torrent of taxpayer money up for grabs.

    The 2020 Programme for Government committed to increase the basis of carbon tax rates from €26 to €100 per tonne of carbon dioxide by 2030 (raising an estimated €9.5 billion over the 2021 – 2030 period) and to use that revenue in specific expenditure programmes including ‘just transition’ schemes, retrofitting and sustainable farming. Current carbon tax rates are based on charging €56 per tonne of carbon dioxide. source


    So where does Irish household spending go? Housing, transport, food, fuel/light. We need Diesel and Ad-Blue (de-ionised water + urea (produced from natural gas)) to move everything around the country, carbon tax works it's way into the cost of everyday living. How much more productive do we have to become to afford this tax?

    Screen-Shot-2019-05-22-at-8.07.22-PM.png

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,793 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Apologies, yes I may have been incorrect on that one point

    "Lie" is a stretch and "lie so much" is quite the exaggeration



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,579 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    In theory the planning process is supposed to be independent of political motivation, but the reality is that in 2023 Eamon Ryan was all over the An Bord Pleanala appeal on the Shannon LNG terminal arguing that it was contrary to government policy, and got the decision he wanted. The High Court just overturned that decision as An Bord Pleanala, and subsequently Eamon Ryan, were incorrectly on what government policy was.

    The situation in Dublin Airport comes under the remit of Eamon Ryan Minister for Transport, and Catherine Martin Minister for Tourism and not as much as a cheep from either of them.

    It doesn`t seem the greens have a problem with using political clout when it comes to the planning process when it suits their agenda, while hiding behind the rules when it doesn`t.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,793 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    So Eamon Ryan shouldn't have intervened in the Shannon LNG terminal and similarly shouldn't intervene in the Dublin Airport issue?

    A govt minister unsure on govt policy describes the greens very well in fairness



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,793 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Yes, the council planners in Fingal are sitting on it and whatever decision they make will be appealed to ABP. If we get a final final decision by 2026 we would be lucky.

    There's also a court case due to be heard in December sometime taken against the IAA by certain airlines. The IAA have said priority should be given to airlines already at Dublin which effectively forces Delta and American out. Why Delta don't use the money they are spending on this case to run out of Shannon is beyond me



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,579 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Eamon Ryan wasn`t unsure of the decision he wanted to get from An Bord Pleanala on the Shannon LNG terminal when he was using his position as a government minister misrepresenting government policy that he and his party were directly respnsible for when it suited.

    Yet somehow now when it comes to Dublin Airport, neither he nor Catherine Martin Minister for Tourism have nothing to say on a policy that will have a direct effect on lost revenue for the tourism sector and state finances.

    Neither are unsure when it comes to putting their green agenda ahead of their responsibities as government ministers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,579 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    I would find it nigh impossible to believe that the Irish Solar Energy Association (ISEA) do not know the difference between installed capacity and the capacity factor for solar.

    What they posted was very much a lie.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 877 ✭✭✭eoinbn


    There are many reasons why Ireland, and the EU in general, will miss out on the next tech revolutions and it will have very little to do with the Irish Green party. Europe just isn't a significant player anymore. We are the new Latin America. We need to accept that and adapt.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,793 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Yes, and he was caught out by the high court. That's exactly my point.

    He is being cowardly about it, no doubt, personally I expect nothing less, but if what he stands for is less planes in the sky he's getting that result



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,579 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    I suppose going by the old adage it is foolish to expect much of anything from a donkey other than a kick.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    "Green policies" go beyond major infrastructure projects. Here is a good presentation from Polysee, that highlights how a housing scheme in Killarney has been scuppered between an bord pleanala and the department of housing.



    image.png

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,793 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Comparing Eamon Ryan to a donkey is a bit mean to the donkey population but I get what you are saying yes



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,579 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    When you think it could not possibly get any more inane during a housing crisis, planning permission is refused for 228 homes because of bats that are not even an endangered species and light affecting tree growth.

    This whole greening agenda is turning the country into a lunatic asylum.



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