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Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,779 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Haven't seen a single journalist yet contradict his 'abusing Dáil privilege' claim.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭paul71


    Don't worry, there is a copy on Hunter Bidens laptop.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭StrawbsM




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 672 ✭✭✭Not made with hands


    Continuity SF

    Real SF

    Old SF

    Official SF

    Pillow SF

    Loads of options really.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,570 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Official is already very much gone as an option; the current SF are the splinter group from that. Official ended up primarily merging with Labour in 1999 after a series of name changes.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,049 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    There was a lot to unpack, main point made was Stanley had his solicitor and a barrister present in what he claimed was a "Kangaroo Court." The podcast should appear over the next few hours on Spotify or YT music (or whatever your preferred provider is)

    For a start, Dáil privilege, by it's very definition, can't be abused. But also she said nothing in the Dail that she hasn't said elsewhere. The Ceann Comhairle at the time also made no comment about MLMDs speech being inappropriate so not sure what Stanley is on about really

    All of this points to Brian Stanley being very deeply in the wrong and while we wait for the official Garda statement RTE and Newstalk are jumping on the opportunity to try and bring SF down…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,596 ✭✭✭spillit67


    Would you have said the same about Maurice McCabe?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,596 ✭✭✭spillit67


    I still think it’s hilarious that they went to such lengths to keep the SF name. The Dual Monarchy party that simply became useful because (ironically) the British falsely branded the Rising as the “Sinn Féin Rising”.

    It was a practical brand and organisation to be entryists in then but reached its sell by day when the likes of DeValera wanted to do something more.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,361 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    OR the more reasonable assumption is that since the issue has been refereed to the Gardai his legal team have correctly advised him against giving any interviews.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,049 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Yes, there are definitely similar aspects to both stories. Main difference is that what's happening here is the reverse. Instead of senior officials in a large organisation targeting one individual you instead have an individual targeting a senior official and trying to smear an entire political party



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 672 ✭✭✭Not made with hands


    She said the allegations was very serious.

    But she also said it wasn't of a criminal nature.

    How could something be very serious but not be a garda matter?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,049 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    You should replace the word "OR" with "AND" in your statement

    If he's not guilty why would he be advised against giving interviews?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,779 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Nonsense comparison.


    McCabe made his side known in the correct place. Which wasn't in the media.

    Stanley, should have said nothing at all , and allowed due process (the Garda investigation) to take it's course. He has opted to not go to the gardai himself, walk out of the process, and to drip feed info into the media.

    No individual is going to allow that without retort and no party in the history of political parties is going to resist it either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,361 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Because that's the advice any competent legal advisor/team would give you regardless of being innocent or guilty. Please tell me you arent truly this ignorant of best practices and advice in the case of legal issues and are just trying to score some pathetic internet points?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,596 ✭✭✭spillit67


    Stanley’s position is that he was subject to a Kangaroo Court.

    Something of a criminal nature was reported to SF on September 11th but rather than report it themselves, they told him to do so whilst he was in the middle of an overall process. In a HR process, this is a complete no no of an approach.

    And let us not forget MLMD’s words that if there was the mere hint of a criminal accusation, it would go to the Guards. Nothing happened from September 11th to October 13th.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,049 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Not comprehensive lists but examples below

    Criminal offences

    • Offences under the Treason Act 1939
    • Murder, attempted murder, conspiracy to murder
    • Piracy
    • Rape
    • Aggravated sexual assault

    Serious offences

    • Possession of certain firearms and offensive weapons
    • Theft
    • Fraud
    • Non fatal offences against the person
    • Assault causing serious harm.
    • Riot.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,049 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    I wasn't aware there were internet points going but if you can't argue against the facts that I lay before you perhaps don't be making it personal?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,779 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    It went to the Gardai following due process.

    Stanley has made allegations, and he has every right to do that, but he has to back them up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,416 ✭✭✭Genghis


    Add to that: verbal abuse, esp. if the complainant has mental health issues.

    Serious but not criminal could be just the expression of an opinion.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    If you don't know the details of the two complaints, why are you on here defending the party and it's handling of the complaints and pretty much doing your best to tarnish Stanley as being in the wrong?

    You've repeatedly told us how you are not a party representative and yet you've spent every waking moment in recent days coming out with the party defence.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,361 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    What facts am i not arguing? I'm simply making the point that your argument that he isn't talking to anyone which according to you "speaks volumes" is nonsense due to what any competent legal team would be advising him to do which is not talk to anyone while under potential Gardai investigation, guilty or not. Talk to any legal professional and they will confirm this, its basic legal strategy.

    If anything you are the one making wild speculation without any facts to support yourself by saying ohh hes not talking so "that speaks volumes". That's absurd levels of supposition.

    Also i wasn't making anything personal just questioning if you are actually as ignorant when it comes to legal issues as your post made you out to be?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭Sigma101


    There are many workplace behaviours that could constitute gross misconduct, but most of these would not require referral to the Gardai. Instead the institution deals with the issue through its own disciplinary processes. I suspect that's what's at play here.

    As Vinleger said, it's likely that Stanley's legal counsel is advising him on what to say and on when to say it. It's also possible that in this case the counter-allegation may serve to corroborate the original allegation. I suspect that there's substance to the allegation that led to the disciplinary process, but that, equally, Stanley is right that the process used against him was unfair.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Mod: several posts deleted after I issued the posters a warning. I did say that i would so read the Politics forum charter before posting here!

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    For nearly a week on here we had @FrancieBrady and @Red Silurian reminding us of various court references that had been given on behalf of sex offenders, and they were at pains to tell us that the context of the reference didn't matter, that references publicly given in court were of the same serious nature as references given in secret to enable a paedophile get a job that would give him access to children.

    What must they think of a reference given in public to hide the fact that someone had been sending inappropriate messages to children? I had come in here this morning expecting to see loud calls for MLMD to resign from those posters who consider all such references to be beyond the pale. Unfortunately, I am still waiting for that.

    From my own perspective, MLMD is unfit for government. She has proven herself unable to manage crisis situations, covering up one incident (the Senator), panicking in another incident and sending a barrister off in a taxi to Kevin St. Garda station (Stanley), not being able to implement policies and procedures (McMonagle) and being overly defensive to criticism (Ryan). If SF are serious about government, she will be gone by the end of the week.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,779 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I have heard SF give their version of what happened. is why.
    I have heard Stanley make allegations, one of which is untrue and the other unbacked up so far.
    I have said above if Stanley can prove it was a 'kangaroo court' then fair enough, SF need to take responsibility for that and the appropriate action, resignations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,049 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    But the thing about it is, he is talking. He's saying things like MLMD abused Dáil privilege and that he was at a kangaroo court. His legal team clearly have no issue with this

    So why is he not saying more, such as what he's accused of? Especially if he's not guilty

    Internet points? Really? Is this the kind of childish behaviour FFG supporters are taking part in these days



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,310 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Everything in both of these lists is a criminal offence.

    "Serious offence" isn't a separate category from "criminal offence. It's a subcategory — some criminal offences are serious (murder, rape, theft, fraud); others are minor (fare evasion, public nuisance, parking offences).

    To be fair, I don't think McDonald said the allegations was not a criminal offences but was a serious offence; she said it was not a criminal offence but it was a serious matter. As others have pointed out, that would rasie the question; why report it to the guards? But perhaps the matter was serious in that it pointed to the possibility of a criminal offence having been committed — e.g. if it was alleged that X was sharing documents that he shouldn't even have had in his possession, that would raise the possiblity that the documents might have been stolen, but not necessarily stolen by X.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,049 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Despite everything MLMD is probably the best chance SF have of forming the next govt. We all saw in 2020 how she made the leaders of FFG look like absolute clowns in the debates. If she resigns it could be another decade of the FFG regime in power. Another decade of rising far-right activists, housing and homeless crises, a cripling health service, €335k bike sheds. Who really wants that in fairness?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Ah ok so because the party which, in the recent past, has been linked to terrorism, criminality and all the other stuff are the ones to believe because they clearly wouldnt hide the truth?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,779 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Nobody should be giving references to convicted sex offenders or those under investigation, is what I said.

    MLMD did not do either.

    Anyone reading the thread yesterday would have seen my post when the statement on O'Donghaile's resignation emerged. I said it was a resigning matter if there was not a good explanation and that at that time 'I could not think of one'.

    Subsequently I said 'that if you are mindful of child protection then you should also be mindful of mental health'. While I think MLMD's statement was OTT I think the motive has to be respected.
    If it comes out he was faking mental health issues with the knowledge of SF then that's another matter.



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