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Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,481 ✭✭✭pureza


    if you think an entity desiring to be in government shouldn’t refer what they view as criminal matters to the Gardaí,those would be your standards not mine
    I wouldn’t like to be putting that position forward to the media for scrutiny,nevermind the electorate



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,307 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    There is a statutory duty regarding child protection issues, the references are not the real issue, the fact a suspected ( at the time ) pedophile had got employment in an organisation with access to children is the issue.

    Just like what Brian Stanley may or may not have done is not the issue for SF, it's the secret processes it carries on with to hide facts from the public.

    Virtually everything to do with Leo was in the public domain, he was entitled to due process which h e got just like Brian Stanley is entitled to. The issue is what made Patrica Ryan resign the internal secrecy of SF. It still operates under a code of Omerta similar to the mafia. That is not the way a democratic political party should operate there should be natural leaks and jockeying for position within the party natural competition and division. That is not the case with SF. It's is a secret organisation controlled by what was previously a terrorist organisation and nothing much about it has changed in 20++ years.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,779 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Just like what Brian Stanley may or may not have done is not the issue for SF, it's the secret processes it carries on with to hide facts from the public.

    Hold on a second. Apparently the process had found that gross misconduct took place and he would have been removed from the party. Which would have been also very public.

    Disciplinary processes are secret up to a point to protect the rights of those involved.
    If SF had gone public think of the legal recriminations they'd have faced had they gone public.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,898 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    I'm guessing Finucane junior was shipped in.

    You can't have enough sulphur at these occasions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,898 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,779 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    'what they view' is carrying a lot of weight there.


    To give another example from this term of government alone, the potential law breaking around Golfgate and the subsequent Phil Hogan revelations,
    SF made a decision that the case involving Stanley needed to be reviewed by the Gardai to see if it 'meets the threshold of criminality'. The Golfgate case immediately needed the same review. So who in either FF or FG or the Greens (the Government) went to the Gardai about it? Did they send a file with what they knew to the Gardai?

    If SF had adamantly said they didn't think it was a criminal offence could they drive up to the Aras and collect the chains of office?

    Because that seems to be what you are saying here. That all that is required is to deny criminality to keep up your 'standards'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I am only counting the extreme cases, I have been involved in a large number of disciplinary cases over the years.

    Not going to say too much, as I don't want to be identified, but at least three of the summary dismissals were in cases such as McGonagles and the second case. No waiting around for suspension, just gone overnight.

    With child abuse, under the Children First Act, 2015, mandated persons must report child abuse to Tusla. Mandated persons include:

    "(i) safeguarding officer, child protection officer or other person (howsoever described) who is employed for the purpose of performing the child welfare and protection function of religious, sporting, recreational, cultural, educational and other bodies and organisations offering services to children;"

    Sinn Fein must have one of these because of Ogra Sinn Fein.

    I am going to ask you and @FrancieBrady the same question. Are you fully satisfied that Sinn Fein have met all their obligations under the Children First Act 2015 as amended?

    Dancing around the issue won't do, because I am pretty certain that any normal person out there must have significant doubts about Sinn Fein.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The very minute that there is a criminal aspect to an investigation, you call in the Gardai.

    You don't wait until the end of the disciplinary process, you don't wait for seven days for people to consider the report, you don't wait until the leader has been briefed, unless, of course, you are Sinn Fein, and you have your alternative courts in place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,481 ✭✭✭pureza


    ’what they view’ is usually common sense when you know you are going to face the electorate and are a political party

    Isn’t the problem for SF in the Stanley case that there’s a perception the Gardaí were only told so as to prolong the hush hush beyond an election perhaps because losing authority over Stanley risked the dirty linen being aired



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Mod: just a reminder not to be posting one liners, etc.
    This is clearly going to be a contentious thread so maybe remind yourself of
    the forum charter before posting as bans will be swift!
    (two posts deleted)

    Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/ .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭Augme


    I completely agree. I don't understand why the BHF don't vet their staff/volunteers through the PSNI. To me that seems like a serious flaw in their processes but that's an issue for them.

    Again, you seem to think privacy rights don't exist. SF aren't in a legal position to divulge personal information about their members. I'm not sure why you think they are.

    Everything to do with Leo was in the public domain after it was leaked by the media. And then when it was in the public domain FG were happy for Leo to remain as party leader and Taoiseach despite a criminal investigation being carried out. Now we have FG fanboys foaming at the mouth becusse SF didn't remove Stanley as Chair of the PAC. The hypocrisy is comical.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,779 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    'what they view' is just a fairly lame vindication. It's clear yet agin you only hold certain parties fully accountable.

    Your perception will not be fully informed if you have blinkers on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭Notmything


    On newstalk she intimated that the barrister had nothing to do with sf, or at least that's how it came across.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,481 ✭✭✭pureza




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 79 ✭✭TruthorBust


    Mary Lou said that the barrister in the hearing is at arms length. Later she said the barrister is a party member. Those 2 statements are contradictory. Clearly there was a barrister there to give the impression of fairness but that’s about it I think



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I have explained this already to you.

    Under vetting legislation, only certain posts in certain organisations are required to be vetted. These are posts that involve regular unsupervised contact with children. You cannot vet other posts, the legislation does not allow this.

    As a result, where a post involves occasional contact with children, that is usually supervised, employers rely on references. For organisations like BHF, this is a rigorous process, involving a second check with the organisation that the references were properly given, hence the contact with the HR Manager in Sinn Fein. There was a serious failure on Sinn Fein's part in this case, as MLMD has acknowledged, and she has also apologised to BHF, because she knows the fault is 100% on Sinn Fein's side.

    It is logistically impossible to vet everyone who might have occasional contact with children, as you would need to vet visitors to schools who give career talks, etc. You trying to shift the blame onto the BHF is a despicable attempt to confuse the issue, something which SF even stopped after the first day.

    As for the privacy issues, I have already explained to you that child protection trumps privacy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,779 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You opened this up to who is fit to govern.

    There are multiple examples of TD's being involved in potentially criminal activity for your contention to be put to the test.

    You have failed to provide evidence that FF FG or the Greens went to the Gardai or presented their findings to the Gardai for review of potential criminality - from Covid law breaking to Official Secrets breaches to possible Insurance fraud etc,

    There are zero examples of FF FG or the Greens referring matters to the Gardai. Yet they are 'in government'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,080 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I'm aware this conversation still may seem unthinkable for some, but is there any chance that MLMD might no longer be SF leader going into the election?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,779 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I'm confused here.
    Is your contention here that MLMD is responsible for people breaking rules and consequently must resign?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭Augme


    Look if organisations you worked for wanted to ignore legilsation and leave themselves open to claims of unfair dismissal that's their own decision. It doesn't mean every other organisation should ignored employment legislation as well.

    Again, you haven't pointed out where in the legislation organisations are allowed pass on a person private information to a potential employer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,481 ✭✭✭pureza


    An amusing stretch,can you give me an example of an internal inquiry involving one of the government parties like this one involved SF where it was necessary to inform the Gardaí ?

    Is it your defence of the current SF shambles,that , ah sure everyone is at it? without providing evidence to back up your claim

    Have you anyone in mind to accuse of a crime ? Name them so

    Introducing the notion of what crimes party members of any party potentially do in their private lives that end up in prosecution is completely irrelevant to what’s going on in SF today



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,479 ✭✭✭landofthetree


    Its too late. Sinn Fein are a busted flush at the next election. The pollster haven't picked up how bad things are for them IMO. They are looking at around 12% of the vote. They will get about 20 seats.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭Notmything


    Are you saying that being aware someone may have engaged in abusive behaviour towards a minor is personal information and cannot be shared?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,161 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    To me anyway, I always felt that SF leaders are/were puppets of the bearded ones up North. She will stay if told to stay, and will resign if told to do so I reckon.

    But to be fair, there is a huge tendency in our political circles to hang on by your fingernails until booted out. Few immediate voluntary resignations seem to happen.

    Honestly if I were MLMD I'd have resigned last night and get on with my life unhindered by all this stuff. Leaving accountability for a later date/enquiry etc.

    But the new "Leader" will be the same as the former Leader anyway. Told what to do and say, that's my feeling anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭Augme


    Again, you haven't pointed out where in the legislation an organisation is allowed contact another employer and pass on private information. Please state the section of the Act, otherwise stop making things up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    What are you confused about? My posts are particularly clear, with references to outside documents.

    MLMD has failed to manage the party properly. It isn't any one singular situation, it isn't Stanley, it isn't Patricia Ryan, it isn't unknown paedophile, it isn't McMonagle, it is the cumulation of all of those things, it is the cumulation of failed processes and failed procedures, that lead one to the conclusion that MLMD must resign.

    Go back a few years, remember the Seamus Marley case, MLMD told the people of Ireland that SF had in place gold-standard, world-class child protection policies and nothing like that would ever happen again. Well, here we are, many years later, with multiple cases of bungled handling of child abuse situations, of hidden secret kangaroo courts, those words of MLMD's look like brazen lies in hindsight.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,267 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    Current events all a side show by Official Ireland - FF, FG and their media lackies.

    The reality is that SF will not be in government because of their stances (led by MLMcD) on immigration and woke politics. Their fate has been sealed for a long time now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭Augme


    Basically yes. Why do you think the papers haven't identified the person in the GAA?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,080 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Do you really think?

    Personally I feel there is a hard floor somewhat higher than that, of fanatics that will vote for them irrespective, as we see with Trump. I still think 30 or so seats is possible for them on that basis.

    Will be interesting in any case.



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