Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

squonk

Lynn Borland should have kept her own counsel over the weekend. Offering her opinion that Stanley should publish the allegation levelled against him and that he was taking half a story. It’s not a good look. While she’s entitled to her opinion, on a wider level it casts doubt on her abilities and the EU parliament is becoming more important as time goes by.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717411#Comment_122717411

There is a huge difference.

In all of those whataboutery cases that you mention, the people involved in them never concluded that there was criminal activity. If I remember correctly, there weren't any prosecutions in relation to the Official Secrets Act either.

In the Stanley case, SF did conclude that there was criminal activity, but failed to refer it to the gardai in a timely manner. What would you say if the successful prosecution of this criminal case has been fatally damaged by that delay? Would you still say that SF have done everything right?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717473#Comment_122717473

You made the assertion about fitness to govern, not me.

Varadkar was under formal criminal investigation for almost a year - indicating there was potential criminality there to be investigated. Did FG hand over a file to the gardai? Or did they wait it out?

Golfgate and Hogan represented an immediate question of lawbreaking - did FG FF or the Greens hand over a file to the Gardai with what they knew about events and ask if it met the threshold for criminality?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717465#Comment_122717465

They didn't ignore employment legislation. You can dismiss summarily overnight for gross misconduct. McGonagle and the hidden paedophile would both fall into that category, and it would seem that Stanley would too. No court would overturn those dismissals.

Your point about GDPR is ridiculous, because that would mean a reference could never be given.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717503#Comment_122717503

So every reference ever given is illegal? Do you see where you are going?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717514#Comment_122717514

SF had in place gold-standard, world-class child protection policies and nothing like that would ever happen again.

And those rules were broken.

I'll ask again, are you saying that a party leader must go if rules are deliberately broken/put aside by someone working for the party or a member or if wrongdoing carried out in secret is uncovered?

blanch152

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/allison-morris-sinn-fein-may-have-thought-that-the-worst-is-over-it-isnt/a1461088928.html

If you want a really good insight into the minds of those who will defend Sinn Fein until the last, have a read of the last quote in this article:

"One ex-prisoner said: “It’s a non story. We don’t need to change anything — we need to keep doing exactly what we are doing because it is working, that’s what our enemies fear. The only people who need restructuring are you and your mates in the media.”"

That line could have come from any of half-a-dozen posters on here.

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717521#Comment_122717521

its true though - i'd like to hear the full story on both sides. Brian Stanley was as much a pro Shinner as I have ever met so its concerning he quit. If it was for purely personal issues, then grand, but if it is due to issues higher up then there may be trouble ahead

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717570#Comment_122717570

I didn't say that. Here it is again, what I actually said:

It isn't any one singular situation, it isn't Stanley, it isn't Patricia Ryan, it isn't unknown paedophile, it isn't McMonagle, it is the cumulation of all of those things, it is the cumulation of failed processes and failed procedures, that lead one to the conclusion that MLMD must resign.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717523#Comment_122717523

The point about the other cases is, it's not for a political party to decide if a criminal act has happened or not. That is for the Gardai, the DPP and the courts to decide.

At no 'timely' point where the above involved by FF FG or the Greens in Varadkar's case. Nor in the case of Hogan and the Golfgate people or in the potential insurance fraud case involving Maria Bailey. They were decided on internally, and in the last case, secretly. As far as I know the internal inquiry report was never published.
We also don't know how that internal inquiry was held and by whom.
The gardai may return a verdict of no criminality in Stanley's case but that is for them to decide, which is the proper way to deal with it IMO

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717587#Comment_122717587

i mean absolutely no offense to you in any way, but you have shown repeatedly you have absolutely no idea how the average shinner thinks so to be offering advice as if you do doesnt really fit

Augme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717543#Comment_122717543

With gross misconduct, you can dismiss the employee immediately as long as you follow a fair procedure. You should investigate the incident and give the employee a chance to respond before deciding to dismiss them.

https://www.gov.uk/dismiss-staff/dismissals-on-capability-or-conduct-grounds#:~:text=Gross%20misconduct%20can%20include%20things,you%20follow%20a%20fair%20procedure.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717545#Comment_122717545

The majority of large organisations will only provide a reference that states the date the person started their employment and the date the employment ended. Most HR divisions will actively refuse to give any reference beyond as it opens up to many potential risks. Sinn Fein shouldn't have provided a reference. They should have refused, and some companies will also refuse which is generally a clue itself.

However the GAA never requested a reference so SF were never in a position to do that. The notion they csn just ring them up and pass on private information about a former employee to them is ludicrous tbh.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717503#Comment_122717503

Can you tell us how Lynn Boylan was seemingly aware of the story when it was supposed to be a private matter?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717628#Comment_122717628

But Sinn Fein gave references that didn't mention the reason McGonagle resigned. Why did they do that?

You are simultaneously holding the position that Sinn Fein were right not to contact the GAA about the second paedophile because you shouldn't give references, but also that Sinn Fein were right to give a reference to McMonagle without mentioning his child abuse conviction. To say you are all over the place is an understatement.

Quite simply, Sinn Fein had a responsibility under their gold-standard world-class child protection policies to let people know about the abusers within their ranks.

JVince

mlmd has stated clearly that the complaint is not of a criminal nature and that had the complaint been of a “criminal nature” it would have been referred to gardaí immediately and the party “wouldn’t have been near it”.

Yet as soon as B Stanley resigns, it very suddenly became a matter for the gardai?

Are sinn fein abusing garda resources the same way they abuse the defamation legislation to silence people?

maccored

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717644#Comment_122717644

i havent experienced that. what you describe is how the media describes SF - not the actual reality. Though keep thinking whatever you want - none of us actually care very much.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717642#Comment_122717642

McMonagle without mentioning his child abuse conviction.

He didn't have a conviction when the references were sent. He only pleaded guilty recently.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717645#Comment_122717645

mlmd has stated clearly that the complaint is not of a criminal nature and that had the complaint been of a “criminal nature” it would have been referred to gardaí immediately and the party “wouldn’t have been near it”.

You need to stick to what was actually said. It was not initially a complaint of a criminal nature. That came when the 'counter allegation' was made.
What happened then was legal advise was taken, the preliminary report circulated and at that point Stanley cut short the process and the file was then sent to the Gardai.
For all we know the 'counter claim' involving criminality may have come from Stanley himself and it's the original complainant in the frame.
All parties to this, I would imagine, have been legally advised to tread very carefully in what they can publicly reveal until the process concludes.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717682#Comment_122717682

The "counter allegation" was in August. Why wasn't it referred to the Gardai at the time? We all know that it is because Sinn Fein prefer to use their own kangaroo court system and not refer to the gardai. It was only when Stanley resigned that the kangaroo court was abandoned. This mirrors what we know of the Mairia Cahill and Seamus Marley situations, where the kangaroo courts were only abandoned after someone went public. This begs the question about how many kangaroo courts have been held where all parties said nothing?

Aren't we lucky that Stanley can use the privilege of the Dail to tell his side of the story?

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122716710#Comment_122716710

And are now saying they will not vote SF, yes.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717644#Comment_122717644

You could add lack of introspection and self-knowledge to that list as it is clear that most SF members and supporters don't realise that is how the outside world sees them, and deny that reality.

Sigma101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717661#Comment_122717661

Sinn Fein gave him the references a year after they became aware that he was under investigation for child abuse offenses. McMonagle is a pedophile. He didn't just become a pedophile with last month's conviction.

Your deliberate misinterpretation of these events is beyond reprehensible.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717661#Comment_122717661

I can't believe that there is someone who will defend the absence of the child abuse issues in the references given to McMonagle. That is just sickening.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717709#Comment_122717709

No misrepresentation - I actually corrected one.
SF did not give references to a convicted person in this instance.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717715#Comment_122717715

I did not defend them. Stop please.

You made a false claim.

JVince

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717682#Comment_122717682

I've quoted EXACTLY what she said.

She was very clear that it was not seen as a criminal matter. Then in the same breath she says it has been referred to gardai.

Gardai don't get involved in civil matters.

Please explain how a matter that is not considered criminal, suddenly becomes so criminalised that it has to be brought to garda attention on a Sunday even though they've been sitting on it for 3 months.

It deflection and just like the SLAPPS cases, it seems to be designed to avoid information coming into the public domain - for the moment.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717744#Comment_122717744

She was very clear that it was not seen as a criminal matter. Then in the same breath she says it has been referred to gardai.

Please, she did not say that. Review what was actually said.

JVince

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717746#Comment_122717746

yes it is.

She stated it was not a criminal matter, then suddenly "upon reflection" on Saturday after Stanley resigned, she suddenly decided it was a criminal matter.

Done so to silence people.

No she is "not in a position to comment" as it has been referred to gardai.

Very very handy that!

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122717743#Comment_122717743

Should the references have mentioned that he was under investigation for child abuse? A simple yes or no will suffice.

RoTelly

Likely outcome of next General Election

FG will top the poll but will suffer when it comes to transfers, FF will do better than expected likely doing well on transfers.

SF will see their vote collapse, left and far left will be on around 10% with independence doing well.

FF/FG government formed IMO, and while I am not a fan hopefully Micheal Martin as Taoiseach for the next 5 years.

Election to be taken in November, it would be a risk to allow it run until the new year.