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Deposit return scheme (recycling) - Part 2

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    You could tell the kids not to pay deposits on cans which are not in the system.

    If the takeaway is charging them they are simply being ripped off.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,875 ✭✭✭Buffman


    In fairness it's not a quango.

    "Quango: a semi-public administrative body outside the civil service but receiving financial support from the government, which makes senior appointments to it."

    At least in theory somewhere along the line a quango is somewhat answerable/accountable to government.

    From a public governance aspect what we have here now is actually a million times worse than a quango, an industry run organisation that is essentially not answerable or accountable to anyone outside of itself.

    FYI, if you move to a 'smart' meter electricity plan, you CAN'T move back to a non-smart plan.

    You don't have to take a 'smart' meter if you don't want one, opt-out is available.

    Buy drinks in 3L or bigger plastic bottles or glass bottles or cartons to avoid the DRS fee.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,971 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Yes, I've said it many times on the thread, it is worse than a quango, it is a scamgo.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,037 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Exactly.

    It's a private company that's making bank on people's money to the tune of millions. And it's not a tax they're collecting either, because none of it is going into the exchequer, but is getting pocketed instead.

    It would have been a million times better for the country if it was a state or semi state run body that could put the millions collected into the state coffers and put it to good use.

    With Re-turn we have just ended up with the worst of everything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,875 ✭✭✭Buffman


    Just to be 100% accurate, having had a quick re-read on the actual law, there is some limited accountability directly to the Minister allowed for in it, in that they have to provide the Minister with any information requested and there is a provision for revoking their approval if they don't comply with the T&Cs or meet their targets. So at least hopefully at some stage in the future a Minister will ask where all the leftover millions are!

    I have to agree, I'd be far more comfortable with it if it was more like the plastic bag levy and the surplus unreclaimed deposits went directly to the state.

    FYI, if you move to a 'smart' meter electricity plan, you CAN'T move back to a non-smart plan.

    You don't have to take a 'smart' meter if you don't want one, opt-out is available.

    Buy drinks in 3L or bigger plastic bottles or glass bottles or cartons to avoid the DRS fee.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭beachhead


    Up north for the cans.They could not have stocks this long since last May.An ex local of mine used to do similiar.Buy cans up north to sell for takeaway until one regular noticed the alcohol content was lower compared to ROI cans.Revenue&Customs sorted that out(don't think they interested in cans of pop though,but you never know)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,617 ✭✭✭jj880


    Ah yes I remember the 1st of February with a tear in my eye. The thrill of being charged more for a product and having to work for free if you want your money back. Magic it was. Then the wonderment of those new machines with holes in the front. What could they be? Perhaps a portal to another world. 😂

    Good man dx. That gave me a better laugh than the wasp joke.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,864 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    I was unsurprised to hear Ray D'Arcy saying he takes great delight in the sound of the machines. He even went to the trouble of taking a recording machine to one of them. This will raise his already high esteem among the public even higher. Listen from the start.

    https://www.rte.ie/radio/radio1/ray/2024/0909/1469193-the-ray-darcy-show-monday-9-september-2024/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,578 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Who would fund that job?

    Very unlkley to see that position on Indeed i'd say.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 983 ✭✭✭bog master


    I seem to remember a post here where it was noted that the Minister claims he cannot compel ReTurn to furnish him with the CEO salary? Perhaps I am mistaken?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 983 ✭✭✭bog master


    Ah yes here we go. Not directly saying he cannot request it, but……………………………

    https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/minister-charge-deposit-return-scheme-33163527



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭bmc58


    You can be sure they are charcing the 15c for the cans.There are supposed to be no un registered cans now in the system.Any buisness still selling these cans are liable to a €5,000 fine.Check your recipt.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 983 ✭✭✭bog master


    True enough. What year do you reckon we will hear of a business being fined? I am still waiting for my CC to reply to me asking have they appointed said Sheriff can checker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    It's a not for profit company.

    Nobody can pocket money out of it.

    There is no lawful means by which dividends can be drawn from a not for profit company.

    (of course it's a given that anyone working for the company can be paid)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,037 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,864 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Something which I probably discovered by accident after the Boards changes. If I just copy and paste a link, it will not be live when I post. But if I put the cursor at the end of the link and press Enter before I post, that makes it live.

    https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/minister-charge-deposit-return-scheme-33163527

    https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/minister-charge-deposit-return-scheme-33163527



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,864 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Of course that didn't work.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,397 ✭✭✭howiya


    The members of the CLG are the drinks producers.

    The directors of the CLG are representatives of the drinks producers.

    One of the CLGs income streams is a fee it charges producers per item that is placed on the market.

    They no longer need to charge producers as much because they're sitting on unclaimed deposits.

    Who needs dividends when they can just vote to reduce the producer's fee?

    Same net effect on cash flow for the drinks producers whether its a called a dividend or something else.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    If that actually happened it would rightly be condemned.

    Do you think it's likely ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,381 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    And I reckon 2 of those CLG members are also on boards, constantly defending this scam.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 983 ✭✭✭bog master


    Why does the board not have a member of the public or a consumer advocate on it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,006 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    Tesco Ennis (indoors) DRS being emptied yesterday.

    Rotten smell of piss coming off the machines.

    Lovely stuff when walking to Tesco or Penneys, or the Pharmacy in there etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭beachhead




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭beachhead




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭beachhead


    Yes,Tony EH Blah blah blah all the way to the bonuses for a job well done



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 602 ✭✭✭Not made with hands


    Don't be so naive!

    More than one way to skin a cat.

    There will be lavish expense accounts, family members working from home in high paid jobs etc. etc.

    There will be plenty of pockets lined.

    There will be lads flying around the world looking at how other countries do it.

    Same as charities, quangos and all across the public service.

    Remember the lads in Rehan and the coffin business?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Naivety is not one of my failings.

    You left out the company cars🚗.

    It's not a charity, a quango or part of the public service.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    I'd be surprised if anyone connected to Re-turn even reads our little discussions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    That was suggested before and it's not a bad idea at all.

    Maybe we should compile a list of suggested improvements.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,617 ✭✭✭jj880


    The question was "why hasnt it happened?" not "is it a good idea?".

    The answer is because Re-Turn dont want to change anything.

    Lets say we do compile a list. Then what?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,102 ✭✭✭Genghis


    Genuine question - How do you see them dealing with the excess deposits?

    Here are my thoughts.

    Assuming they won't adjust anything until at least 12 months after launch, I say they could have have around €80m excess deposits to deal with at that point. (assumptions below).

    Now as they are 'Not for Profit' I believe the directors have a duty to reduce the mountain of cash built up from year 1 - and ensure it does not build up again.

    The options they could consider are limited and will be subject to Minister Approval, please reply if I am missing any.

    1. Increase the retailer fee
    2. Reduce the producer fee
    3. Increase the deposit amount
    4. Change the deposit return separate to deposit levy (i.e. micro incentivise return)
    5. Justify spending the money on something
    6. "Re-turn" to the Exchequer

    Given the make-up of Re-turn, if they have autonomy, option 2 is the most likely. With a close trading relationship between producers and retailers & to make it look more balanced, its very possible that a bone is thrown to retailers as well under item 1. A dividend in all but name.

    Item 3 is possible but may be considered risky (if they up the deposit and the collection rate doesn't go up faster, they end up with an even bigger mountain of cash); also it may not be effective at reducing the existing mountain of cash as deposits are inherently neutral. Item 4 is a complete radical outsider, I don't see it being in any way being considered.

    In the Walter Mitty world of Ciaran Foley, he says publicly that any excess funds will be re-invested in recycling schemes (or, for example, setting up a plant), and I have no doubt he would love to be sitting on such a disposable purse of money. But does he really believe a state appointed business with a €36m budget would ever be allowed spend more than 3 times that on whatever they like?

    Item 6 may happen, but I wonder if a Minister can over-rule directors - i.e. unless the directors wanted to be generous to the Government, this may not happen.

    Look for all the fun talk on here of nice company cars, Bikram yoga at the office, cushy expense accounts and knees-up work-dos, there is only so much of €80m you can get away with spending like that - its a colossal amount of cash that can't be assigned to 'Travel and Entertainment' ledgers. Same thing with say PR and advertising - yes, I notice they are spending much more now they have huge cash available, but €80m more - thats a multiple of Mr Blue Sky / National Lottery advertising wastage.

    Workings for €80m:

    DRS is intended to be self funding and projected to cost around 10% of deposits.Assume 1.8bn containers at average 20c per item, 10% of this is €36m. As is looking likely, first year returns will max out at less than 70%. If we come in around 67/68% for year one, there is going to be around €80m in excess unclaimed refunds, over and above the normal funding of Re-turn.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 602 ✭✭✭Not made with hands


    You said:

    "Nobody can pocket money out of it"

    Only the most naive would believe that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 602 ✭✭✭Not made with hands


    I know a lad that services engines for a government organisation.

    I am not at all surprised that all the employees get their private vehicles serviced by him too.

    Anybody remember when Advance Tyres brought Gardai to visit a factory in Manchester?

    They also went to see a Manchester United game and played a round of golf.

    Only the most naive of fools believes there will be no kickbacks along the way with this one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,617 ✭✭✭jj880


    Its not naivety. This has been explained several times in this thread to the same poster. Its always the same reply. "Not a quango" "not for profit".

    The longer Re-Turn keeps hoovering up deposits with no changes the more ridiculous these terms sound.

    The low hanging fruit should have been fixed months ago e.g. IBAN refunds, airport and home delivery exemptions, bulk RVMs but that would mean less money in the trough so nothing doing.

    Farce of a scheme.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Depends on your definition of "pocket".

    It suggests dishonesty/stealing to me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    On second thoughts forget about the list.

    I'll do my own.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    To answer your question directly, I don't know for certain.

    I thought all along the plan was to re-invest any surplus in the business or related activities.

    As you say they seem to have an unexpected windfall to deal with.

    I don't think using that windfall to reduce the producer fees will be sustainable or acceptable to the public.

    Not sustainable because when the excess money is gone they'll need to exist on a normal level of income.

    Also as others have said it would be seen as feathering their own nest.

    Spending on pr and marketing will be limited by the fact that there is no "product".

    My preference would be to see the excess spent on improvements but with a revised plan to allow for the changed circumstances.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 602 ✭✭✭Not made with hands


    No doubt they will team up with the likes of the GAA or IRFU to promote the "green agenda" or some other nice sounding slogan to our children.

    The kickback? Yes you guessed it, all expenses paid days out to a 6 nations game or all Ireland final.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,102 ✭✭✭Genghis


    I hear what you are saying about one-off reductions in PF not being sustainable, but the idea would be they reduce producer fees until the cash mountain is depleted and in say 2-3 years time re-adjust again. €80m would buy 4 years at 1c PF reduction, or 2 years at 2c reduction, etc.

    In reality, I think they may announce with lots of fanfare some minor scheme improvements, they may hike deposit amount too to force compliance (after any general election) but really €80m in 1 year & growing is huge and I think it will mostly be disbursed via PF reduction.

    I wish someone in the media would ask Mr. Foley if he has projected the accumulated unclaimed deposits to year end and what he thinks the company should do with them. When he answers with BS about recycling initiatives ask him what sort of initiatives need €80m and if that's appropriate for a business set up with a budget of €36m.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Would bleeding off the excess cash by reducing the PF not be seen as gifting lost deposits to the drinks companies ?

    Even if every RVM was working perfectly and all the other criticisms of the scheme addressed I still don't think consumers would be happy with that.

    Maybe instead of a lot of small initiatives putting the money into the projected recycling plant in Limerick would be acceptable.

    I don't forsee any major announcements from Mr Foley this side of next February.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,329 ✭✭✭✭Cienciano


    Sick of broken machines, I now have just accepted it as a tax and throw them in the bin. Not worth the hassle



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53 ✭✭c2r


    I'm travelling over the water to visit friends in England next week - they've got several months worth of saved up return stamped tinnies and plastics for me to bring back on the ferry with me as it looks like pretty much all M&S own brand stuff sold over there is return ready… Looking forward to importing waste into the state and swapping it for more free stuff.

    Possibly not what the scheme was intended to achieve 🤣



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,715 ✭✭✭✭Jim_Hodge


    I've returned more than a few Northern Ireland bottles that my daughter keeps if there's a return logo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,343 ✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    I am surprised Ray managed to work the recording device to get a sample.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,617 ✭✭✭jj880


    Did you do it? Can we see it?

    There's more chance of CEO Foley listing what actually needs fixed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Archeron


    Imagine you had this as a project in work, that your target was to achieve 90% collection rate.

    Immediately when the project goes live, and for the six months since, your customer base points out flaws that WILL prevent you from reaching your target.

    Do you act to fix those problems immediately thus making target achievement more likely?

    Or do you totally ignore them all and hope for the best? All while rolling around on a bed of other peoples money.

    I think Returns actions or lack of, put them in option two and makes it quite clear they couldnt give a shiny sh*te about collection numbers.

    All about the money and screw the many many negative consequences of a horribly thought out project. (or perfectly thought out depending on what they wanted to get from this, ie, money).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,896 ✭✭✭Hande hoche!




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,864 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    They could take some comfort from the 90% target still being a few years away. No need to panic after just a few months. There is a customer base of millions, not well represented by the anti views prevalent in this little discussion. The thread has its origins back in 2010, when the antis were already a big majority from the start. And of course a deliberate misunderstanding of the difference between a deposit and a tax.

    Alignment to EU Recycling Targets

    The Single Use Plastics (SUP) Directive is the main driver for the introduction of Deposit Return. We need to achieve the EU recycling targets of 77% by 2025, and 90% by 2029 and Deposit Return is a proven successful solution to achieving these.

    (2010) Do you support a returnable Can/Bottle charge? 164 votes

    Yes 15c per Can/Bottle would clear up the litter!7% 12 votes

    No!.Its another goverment tax 71% 117 votes

    Yes. Make the drinks/Beer companies pay.14% 23 votes.

    I don't care about the litter. Let it pile up.7% 12votes.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,971 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Do you understand the difference between people going along grudgingly with a scheme to get their own money back versus people who approve of the scheme and think it is doing a good job?

    Would that still be a deposit then if they didn't? Or a tax? Money for old rope? Answers on a postcard.

    The 90% target being a few years ago doesn't excuse Re-turn ignoring obvious issues with the scheme, issues which could have easily been foreseen even back in 2010… bulk RVMs, RVMs at council sites, people who get deliveries, people in wheelchairs, people at airports and ferry ports.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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