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World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) Files

1414244464759

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,917 ✭✭✭Enduro


    No matter how often you repeat it you are still provably wrong. The BMA are a trade union for Doctors. They is the very first thing they say about themselves. They are not an Authoritative medical body. They are not an Authoritative scientific body.

    Do you understand what a trade union is? Do you understand the difference between a trade union and an authoritative body (such as the GMC, which as the regulator for the medical profession actually is an authoritative body)?

    Your need to keep digging rather than accept that you have it wrong is a stark weakness which undermines every point you make, since you can't be trusted to admit if you are incorrect about something.

    Speaking of which, do you still stand over your declaration that Gender identity is an immutable characteristic?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,108 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    They’re both a trade union, and a professional body for doctors in the UK. That’s what they say about themselves, first line in your own earlier link. This means they are an authoritative body, which represents their members, headed by a ruling council. I don’t know did you even bother to read the original article you linked to, or the other opinion pieces by the same doctor who’s a member of the ruling council, but she makes the same point:

    The British Medical Association is both a trade union and a professional organisation. Professional activities such as its successful campaigns around seatbelt legislation and smoking have added weight to its standing as a union. It is not noted for drama and histrionics.

    So there was significant surprise when its governing body, the BMA council, recently voted to reject the recommendations of the Cass review, an independent review commissioned to look at NHS gender identity services in England, which was accepted in full by the last government and its successor.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/sep/07/bma-cass-report-gender-identity-services

    The GMC are another authoritative body. I was wondering why you brought them up because they’re of no value to your nonsense, they’ve got plenty of their own issues to deal with:

    https://www.medscape.co.uk/viewarticle/dysfunctional-gmc-labelled-not-fit-purpose-after-latest-2022a100260x

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/10/trans-doctors-register-change-gender/

    I don’t expect nor need you to trust me at all, I don’t even expect you to be civil given you’re winding up to fly off the handle and fire off abuse now any minute as you’ve done on many, many previous occasions when I’ve pointed out your previous efforts have amounted to nothing. You can be God for all I care, I still don’t have any interest in your dancing on the head of a pin nonsense rather than even so much as making an effort to contribute constructively to the discussion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,917 ✭✭✭Enduro


    Still digging, and still can't admit to being wrong about anything. That just fundamentally undermines everything you post.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,108 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    There’s nothing to admit to being wrong about. You said this:

    It looks like a repeat of the usual clash between TRA ideology and medical science, along with the climate of intimidation and fear being repeated yet again.

    (and note I didn’t even have an issue with your using inverted commas around the word “official” in relation to BMAs official position, I left it out as it would’ve simply been nitpicking)

    I said this:

    They’re all authoritative medical and scientific bodies Enduro 😁

    It’s just a question of which body carries the most authoritative political, social, economic and legal clout, with each body vying for recognition, representation, validation and legitimacy.

    And from that you started with this nonsense:

    That's just plain wrong. The BMA is a trade union, not an authoritative scientific body.


    Which bore no relation whatsoever to what I’d previously said. The BMA is just one authoritative body, the GMC are another, they both operate in the UK, and you tried to create the impression that there is any distinction between TRA ideology and medical science, when in practice, and in principle, there clearly is not - none, nada, zip, zilch.

    They’re inextricably interconnected, intertwined, whatever, because fundamentally they are about the people behind the ideas, and the agreement or disagreement among them about the application and utility of those ideas and principles in the process of scientific research and the practice of medicine.

    The Cass Review was by no means the be-all and end-all of anything, it was nothing more than a review commissioned by the NHS to inform policy decisions in relation to the provision of transgender healthcare services in the UK. The BMA chose to reject its findings, that’s their official position, no need for the inverted commas, and it’s a position that so far, only one of the members of it’s ruling council has publicly declared in the media that because the organisation of which she is a member haven’t endorsed Cass, that somehow this means the medical profession is under threat.

    It looks like a clash of TRA ideology and medical science to you, only because of your own biases. To the medical profession, it’s business as usual.



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    In case this hasn't been shared here this is an incredibly damning critic of the Cass reports biases and methodology which was published in the respected journal scientific America.

    The Cass report was commissioned by a ideologically motivated political party with the express intention of dismantling Gender affirmative care for Trans Children.

    Shocking that it will have such a damaging impact on many vulnerable children's lives.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-u-k-s-cass-review-badly-fails-trans-children/ e



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,917 ✭✭✭Enduro


    Credit where credit is due. Scientific American is indeed an extremely well respected journal. However, the key sentence is at the end of the article :

    This is an opinion and analysis article, and the views expressed by the author or authors are not necessarily those of Scientific American.

    It's an opinion piece which reflects the views and politics of the author(s). No more than that. As such the article itself is subject to similar biases which the Cass report is being accused of (but without the extensive scientific, medical and political backing attained by the Cass report)



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The Cass report has been extensively criticized by experts regarding its methodology. It set out with a criteria of how it would asses the research it reviewed and then invented a new criteria when it was obvious that it wouldn't support it's conclusions.

    If the Cass report were submitted to a journal such as scientific America it would likely have been rejected for failures in methodology.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Everyone's entitled to their beliefs, some people believe the earth's flat and good for them, but they are just their beliefs.

    "The Cass report was commissioned by a ideologically motivated political party with the express intention of dismantling Gender affirmative care for Trans Children"

    If you believe this good for you. To everyone else this is just that, your belief and has no basis in reality.

    I'm not sure where to start with that article as everything in it is wrong, literally everything!

    Post edited by CatFromHue on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,112 ✭✭✭taxAHcruel


    Just an important correction there. Scientific American is not a "journal" as you claim. You do not submit reports and papers to it for peer review like an actual journal. It is not their place to "accept" or "reject" papers. But to interpret them - through their own opinions and biases - for a lay public.

    It is in fact a "popular science" magazine that is essentially just opinion pieces and articles ABOUT science for the lay public. And since Laura Helmuth took the helm has certainly started publicising more and more progressive ideology stances such as articles not about science but about the historic racism of household names in science from EO WIlson to Charles Darwin and even comically enough Mendel!

    They have had articles lamenting the "White patriarchal past" of the field of mathematics and about Health Care workers calling for a support of Palestine as well as an article promoting religious treatments for mental illness titled "Psychiatry needs to get right with God" and an article titled "Trans Girls belong on girls sports teams".

    Not to mention an article claiming "The racist roots of fighting obesity".

    They even took the time to write an article against expanding DEI to JEDI as an acronym because apparently the Jedi from the movies are inappropriate due to being “prone to (white) saviorism and toxically masculine approaches to conflict resolution (violent duels with phallic light sabers, gaslighting by means of ‘Jedi mind tricks,’ etc.).”

    So no - this magazine is not a science journal at all. It never has been. But it seems even less so now a days.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,434 ✭✭✭✭Birneybau


    Ouch



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    They can't dismiss Prof Cass' credentials, report or the fact she has finally shouted "the Emperor is start bollock naked" so they are going after everything they can try to diminish the methodology - one I found amusing was "she hasn't included any studies involving non-binary children" - because she's a scientist and that is an ideological position.

    Lads, the gig is up - the scales are starting to be removed from the eyes of those who previously would not see. Adults can do whatever they want but kids should be left alone without being put on a path to sterilisation and other harmful effects. I was and remain a massive tomboy - it's sad to think this might not even be a thing any more the way this is going.

    Oh and the BMA is a trade union, nothing more - it's like taking the IFUT's word on the future of AI in education although the BMA have been seriously captured ideologically.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,434 ✭✭✭✭Birneybau


    I'm eagerly awaiting SIPTU's opinion on the matter



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    Ah be fair now, they're still solving the war in Ukraine and discussing the global impact of Putin…!!! ;)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,190 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Yes I was going to point this out too: it is no longer (and has not been for decades) a scientific publication where scientists post studies for peer review.

    It is a science popularising magazine, where journalists write articles to explain science stories to the wider public.

    Sadly, as you say, as in so much of publishing these days, its editorial board seems to have been captured by activists so that the "science" is often merely an adjunct to their ideologies.

    It's certainly not the sort of journal @Shoog is thinking of in a comment like this:

    If the Cass report were submitted to a journal such as scientific America it would likely have been rejected for failures in methodology.

    The Cass report - nor any study - would not be submitted to a journal like Scientific American for evaluation of its methodology: there's a complete misunderstanding of the whole system of peer review going on with that claim!

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The Cass report could not be published as a scientific review paper (a paper reviewing all papers in a field to asses the weight of evidence overall) because it doesn't meet rigorous standards of impartiality and methodology - you should be concerned about that but obviously these are not qualities which are important to you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,190 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    It wasn't posted as a scientific review because it was a government-commissioned report, not a research review. And if it had been research of that nature, it would not have been sent to the Scientific American for possible publication because that is not what the Scientific American does.

    You clearly have no clue about how science research works and are just parroting propaganda.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I am a scientist by training so get over yourself.

    A scientific review should meet scientific standards of methodology - cass doesn't.

    Answer this does the Cass report claim to be a review of the scientific evidence for transgender treatment - because that is the claim been made on this thread.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    It wasn't a scientific review paper, it was a Government commissioned report into healthcare.

    You have absolutely zero clue how scientific papers work - Prof Cass poked a stick at a belief system you hold dear and I understand this might be hard but sure the Turin Shroud was shown to be a 14th century fake and I still say prayers and go to Mass - you can have your beliefs, it just means kids will no longer be fast tracked to harmful medical pathways.

    You are still free to believe in your ideology, no one will stop that. It's just not "science".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,190 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    And have you sent many of your articles to the Scientific American for consideration? 🤣

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Is Cass review claiming to be a systematic review of the scientific basis of transgender treatment of children ? Simple question.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,190 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    I haven't said anything of the sort though. If someone else has, ask them about it.

    But why don't you answer first why you said that Scientific American would refuse it due to methodology, when that's not what the SA does in the first place? Especially now you're claiming to be a scientist: I thought you just didn't know, but now you make it seem like you were deliberately misleading posters whom you thought wouldn't know?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Journal of repute. You imagine you have some sort of gotcha moment.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    "What is a systematic review?

    A systematic review is a high-level overview of primary research on a particular research question that tries to identify, select, synthesize and appraise all high quality research evidence relevant to that question in order to answer it"

    What exactly is the issue with the methodology?

    You keep putting out vague statements about it's flaws and expect detailed answers but you never say what the flaws are.



  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    They changed the assessmentcriteria mid review, they excluded experts in the field from making submissions or been asked to participate. There was bias in that selection process whch favoured non expert bodies who held an anti-trans stance. These are just a few.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,190 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    I've no idea what your point is here. You made a misleading claim about the Cass report based on inaccuracies about what the Scientific American does in respect of scientific publications. That doesn't disminish or dismiss the value of the SA in what it actually does. It's you, not the SA, that is at issue here.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    How did they change the assessment criteria mid review?

    Cass met many many groups and people. Some you specifically would argue are "anti trans" but by that criteria she also met many who would be "pro trans".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,108 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    because she's a scientist and that is an ideological position.

    I hate to be ‘that guy’ Squirrels but Hillary Cass, whatever else she is, is not a scientist. I don’t need to dismiss her credentials as I have no interest in her as a person, it’s her work I’m focused on, and as part of her work, just another thing to note that’s been posted in the last few posts - it was not a government-commissioned review. The review was commissioned by the NHS, independently of whomever was in Government at the time, in order to determine policy in relation to the provision of transgender healthcare services.

    The BMA btw weren’t relegated to merely being a trade union overnight as a consequence of their rejection of the findings of the Cass Review - they were always a trade union and a professional body for doctors in the UK, who have significant influence in Government policy in relation to the provision of healthcare in the UK. That’s why the one doctor who is also a member of the BMA council claimed that the medical profession is under threat as a consequence of the BMA rejecting the findings of Cass. If they were merely a trade union and not an influential authoritative body in the practice of medicine in the UK - even less people than already do would give a fig for their opinion as it would mean nothing. So elevating the opinions of one of their members because it agrees with theirs, while dismissing the BMA itself, is nothing new.


    I am a scientist by training so get over yourself.

    On this occasion, I have no issue with being ‘that guy’ in pointing out that being a scientist by training means nothing, literally nothing. I was willing to overlook your presentation of an article in a popular science magazine (on their own, it’s authors are transgender studies graduates - political scientists, and that’s being kind, but one is the parent of a transgender child, and I can’t remember what the other author’s credits were but I couldn’t be arsed reading the article again, it was painful enough the first time). All you’re doing, and you should be acutely aware of it (though understandably not self-aware enough to realise you’re doing it) - is making an argument from authority.

    It’s precisely because the quality of evidence in transgender healthcare is so abysmal that the NHS commissioned the review, and while I do have criticisms of the review, in my view it wasn’t rigorous enough to justify its recommendations - the recommendations simply couldn’t be deduced from the evidence presented in the review, it was as though the recommendations could have been made without the review. I wasn’t surprised to see the critique hadn’t been published in Nature magazine either, it’s a British publication, but it’s a tad more interesting than the bog roll standard articles published in Scientific American:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_%28journal%29

    Lads, the gig is up - the scales are starting to be removed from the eyes of those who previously would not see.


    Be surprised what can be achieved in medicine nowadays Squirrels, should that ever be an issue for people who would not see because they can’t see… with their eyes at least 😳


    Mr James has not regained sight in that eye, but researchers are hopeful he might eventually be able to see out of it again.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c33nx82y8rjo#



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Well, some of us can see the problem here - "all high quality research evidence" - there was precious little high quality research and nothing supporting the affirmative model of care. Now, if the various treatment centres had been even slightly scientific regarding record keeping, then those records could have formed a body of evidence (not necessarily one supporting their care model though).

    Post edited by aero2k on


  • Posts: 6,626 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    "Unfortunately, the Review repeatedly misuses data and violates its own evidentiary standards by resting many conclusions on speculation. Many of its statements and the conduct of the York SRs [systematic reviews] reveal profound misunderstandings of the evidence base and the clinical issues at hand. The Review also subverts widely accepted processes for development of clinical recommendations and repeats spurious, debunked claims about transgender identity and gender dysphoria. These errors conflict with well-established norms of clinical research and evidence-based healthcare. Further, these errors raise serious concern about the scientific integrity of critical elements of the report’s process and recommendations.”

    https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/documents/integrity-project_cass-response.pdf

    i could go on all day suppling evidence of the inadequacy of the Cass Report from actual exprts in the field , but you have all made up your mind that it's the gold standard because it confirms your already well established biases that treatment of transgender children with gender affirming therapies is just wrong.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    You haven't given us an example yet, you've just given us someone's opinion.



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