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Luas Green Line - Bray extension

24

Comments

  • #32
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    no idea!
    Dunsink landfill finally closed as a municipal waste site on Christmas Eve 2003.The Fingal Draft Development Plan (2017-2023) in its submission draws attention to Dunsink Lane and its environs. It noted that even though “the remediation of Dunsink Lane is now complete it will still require long term management and monitoring of leachate and atmospheric emissions”.

    Computer says no.

    Replace 'green fields' in your original with 'methane leaking and asbestos filled fields'. So actually going via Finglas would be cheaper than this nightmare alignment
    http://thecircular.org/legacy-landfills-still-a-concern-for-the-finglas-community/


  • #33
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,557 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    If they are so concerned about price, dont built it! The value IF they can build over that land and provide thousands of apartments, is a far better investment. I'd take everything with a large pinch of salt from the councils here!

    Theyll say whatever suits their agenda.

    If there are no major issues building over it and the land around it could be used for housing in a reasonable time frame. it would be my far preferred route! Then again, I am not a politician looking for vote or the NTA trying to sell this project ! I reckon votes are easier to find by serving the existing sprawl, than looking for votes from the animals grazing those fields currently! Cant wait for years of debating which route to take and all of the nimbyism going near finglas. Several public consultations etc..


  • #34
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    If they are so concerned about price, dont built it! The value IF they can build over that land and provide thousands of apartments, is a far better investment. I'd take everything with a large pinch of salt from the councils here!

    Theyll say whatever suits their agenda.

    But they can't so this is a pointless argument. Which leaves us in the position of duplicating the Dart line to blanch, extending to the N2 via the north road or doing nothing


  • #35
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,557 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    But they can't so this is a pointless argument. Which leaves us in the position of duplicating the Dart line to blanch, extending to the N2 via the north road or doing nothing

    by the time this line is designed and might actually have spades in the ground, that land would still be unsuitable?

    the landfill closed in 2003, realistically it could be what? 2033 before this luas would be built?


  • #36
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    by the time this line is designed and might actually have spades in the ground, that land would still be unsuitable?

    the landfill closed in 2003, realistically it could be what? 2033 before this luas would be built?

    2033 before anything could potentially be built. The Luas Finglas could be built by then. I've no problem with a second line up that alignment but you're probably looking at 2040 at the earliest


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  • #37
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,615 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    2033 before anything could potentially be built. The Luas Finglas could be built by then. I've no problem with a second line up that alignment but you're probably looking at 2040 at the earliest

    Build it up Ratoath Road?

    You have the existing area of Finglas to the West and land to the East where a future SDZ would go once the land is ready.

    I think it will be quiet a while before we see this extension, what with everything else to do.


  • #38
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,615 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    BTW The idea of heading towards Blanch isn't that crazy, it is basically what Metro West was planned to do.


  • #39
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,746 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Those fields are the old dump . Is that mature enough to be built on yet?

    I did the most basic digging in to this before - the stadium in Reading was built on a dump that had been capped even more recently than Dunsink was; but different waste loads may have gone in.




    All the Luas extensions in world are fine even if they duplicate other stuff somewhat - once we actually have a network. Resilience and options are good things. But I'd consider F (with a redesigned, but still redundant route to the city centre - not sharing with Red after Fatima) a priority over any other Luas extensions myself currently; followed by Bray, Ringsend, Finglas in that order. Possibly the suggested extension of F to the DART somewhere to the SE could be done at the same time.


  • #40
    Viscount Aggro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭Viscount Aggro


    Incorrect info about Fassaroe. That development plan was rejected by planners.


  • #41
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    bk wrote: »
    Build it up Ratoath Road?

    You have the existing area of Finglas to the West and land to the East where a future SDZ would go once the land is ready.

    I think it will be quiet a while before we see this extension, what with everything else to do.
    I think you've got your directions flipped.

    Let's build public transport to where the people actually live not somewhere they may potentially live if 25 years time. If you go up the north road you capture all of Finglas as it currently exists and Glasnevin east of Ballygall


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  • #42
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    bk wrote: »
    BTW The idea of heading towards Blanch isn't that crazy, it is basically what Metro West was planned to do.

    What's crazy is duplicating the future Dart line. Metro West served an entirely different purpose


  • #43
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    L1011 wrote: »
    I did the most basic digging in to this before - the stadium in Reading was built on a dump that had been capped even more recently than Dunsink was; but different waste loads may have gone in.




    All the Luas extensions in world are fine even if they duplicate other stuff somewhat - once we actually have a network. Resilience and options are good things. But I'd consider F (with a redesigned, but still redundant route to the city centre - not sharing with Red after Fatima) a priority over any other Luas extensions myself currently; followed by Bray, Ringsend, Finglas in that order. Possibly the suggested extension of F to the DART somewhere to the SE could be done at the same time.
    "It noted that even though “the remediation of Dunsink Lane is now complete it will still require long term management and monitoring of leachate and atmospheric emissions"
    Per the link i already posted.

    Bray is already severed by high frequency rail why would you put it ahead of Finglas?


  • #44
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    I was at a presentation about Balleally dump, and the engineer said you can't build anything too heavy on it as it will subside , and Dunsink is the same.


  • #45
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,746 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    LeinsterDub wrote: »

    Bray is already severed by high frequency rail why would you put it ahead of Finglas?

    Link Cherrywood and Sandyford to the rail network and hopefully replace existing trip patterns that are only practical by car

    Finglas has buses that mostly work currently, Luas would be an improvement and draw some more people to it but it's not as impactful as providing a route that avoids the M50/M11.


  • #46
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,615 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    I think you've got your directions flipped.

    Let's build public transport to where the people actually live not somewhere they may potentially live if 25 years time. If you go up the north road you capture all of Finglas as it currently exists and Glasnevin east of Ballygall

    Nope, there is little point in building high quality public transport to areas with very spread out, low density housing.

    The focus on the Luas and eventual Metrolink extensions will need to be building to green field sites and then creating SDZ's around the stops with very high density apartments close by. Basically what is happening at Cherrywood.

    Unless you are suggesting knocking all the homes in Finglas and replacing them with new apartments.

    If it is a case that the dump can't be built on with high buildings, then fair enough, an SDZ might not be possible and that in turn would make a Finglas extension far less of a priority.

    Instead probably better to focus on turning Dublin Industrial Estate into a SDZ and focus development there, it is a prime site for massive redevelopment.

    I suppose a P&R up on the N2 would be some justification for an extension, but I'd say the relatively low density homes around Finglas isn't in itself.

    BTW the justification for extending the Green line to Bray (and the subject of this thread) is to open up the fields along the route to development. To turn them into SDZ's like Cherrywood. Connecting to the DART at Bray isn't really the primary goal, it is the cherry on top, but not really why they want to build it.
    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    What's crazy is duplicating the future Dart line. Metro West served an entirely different purpose

    What is being suggested is very close to the start of the original Metro West. The original Metro West went from a P&R on the N2 to Blanch, then on to Lucan etc.

    What was suggested is just a slight variant on that and could be the first phase of a MW.

    Look I'm not saying that should all happen, but it is certainly an interesting idea. I'd say it would all hinge on how and if the dump could be developed.


  • #47
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    bk wrote: »
    Nope, there is little point in building high quality public transport to areas with very spread out, low density housing.

    The focus on the Luas and eventual Metrolink extensions will need to be building to green field sites and then creating SDZ's around the stops with very high density apartments close by. Basically what is happening at Cherrywood.

    Unless you are suggesting knocking all the homes in Finglas and replacing them with new apartments.

    If it is a case that the dump can't be built on with high buildings, then fair enough, an SDZ might not be possible and that in turn would make a Finglas extension far less of a priority.

    Instead probably better to focus on turning Dublin Industrial Estate into a SDZ and focus development there, it is a prime site for massive redevelopment.

    I suppose a P&R up on the N2 would be some justification for an extension, but I'd say the relatively low density homes around Finglas isn't in itself.

    BTW the justification for extending the Green line to Bray (and the subject of this thread) is to open up the fields along the route to development. To turn them into SDZ's like Cherrywood. Connecting to the DART at Bray isn't really the primary goal, it is the cherry on top, but not really why they want to build it.



    What is being suggested is very close to the start of the original Metro West. The original Metro West went from a P&R on the N2 to Blanch, then on to Lucan etc.

    What was suggested is just a slight variant on that and could be the first phase of a MW.

    Look I'm not saying that should all happen, but it is certainly an interesting idea. I'd say it would all hinge on how and if the dump could be developed.

    You make some good points my main bone on contention is just don't call it Luas Finglas if it's not going to be a Luas to Finglas. A SDZ in Dublin Industrial Estate , P&R at N2 and a SDZ at Charlestown would be plenty of density

    Which could potentially give you a stop 1 KM from Broombridge a stop 1KM from that at premier square/clearwater , a stop 1 KM from that at Finglas , and a stop 1.45 KM from that at Charlestown.

    PS I believe there are plans to redevelop the Finglas Business Centre on Jamestown Rd/ The North Rd


  • #48
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,764 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Yes, I think it's going to turn north at Broombridge, through Dublin Industrial Estate, across Tolka Valley, up through the parks there, turn right at some stage (not sure where, I was thinking Erins Isle Gaa club, but they'd be understandably miffed at losing a pitch), then left onto the Finglas Rd to follow it out to the M50 and beyond.

    Can't see Bray happening at this stage, they'll probably plan it out, but once Cherrywood starts coming on stream, I think that the NTA's figures for capacity on the green line are going to look a bit silly.


  • #49
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    CatInABox wrote: »
    Yes, I think it's going to turn north at Broombridge, through Dublin Industrial Estate, across Tolka Valley, up through the parks there, turn right at some stage (not sure where, I was thinking Erins Isle Gaa club, but they'd be understandably miffed at losing a pitch), then left onto the Finglas Rd to follow it out to the M50 and beyond.

    Can't see Bray happening at this stage, they'll probably plan it out, but once Cherrywood starts coming on stream, I think that the NTA's figures for capacity on the green line are going to look a bit silly.

    I would like to see something similar , make Wellmount Rd access only and come out there . No need to mess with the pitches.


  • #50
    marno21
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,648 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Connecting to the DART at Bray opens up the Luas Green Line corridor connections for passengers both in Bray and south of Bray. Greystones-Sandyford becomes simple and would help remove traffic from the N11.

    Of course, the counter issue here being the severe capacity constraints that exist on the Bray-Greystones line, along with the obvious future Green Line issues.


  • #51
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,764 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Spotted an article earlier about new developments entering planning, one stuck out. There's going to be 222 apartments going onto the Finglas Road, which will start to change the equation in terms of density around there. I'd say by the time a Finglas Luas is finished, the number of planning applications for the area will have shot through the roof. One of the benefits of a relatively low density area is the ability to scale it up pretty quickly. A lot of people there will want to cash in as well, once developers come calling.

    EDIT: And then totally forgot to include the article. See here.


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  • #52
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,147 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    the landfill closed in 2003, realistically it could be what? 2033 before this luas would be built?

    Does it have to be so many years to allow the waste at the site to settle or something?


  • #53
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Gael23 wrote: »
    Does it have to be so many years to allow the waste at the site to settle or something?

    It's to do with potential gas build up and leeching I believe


  • #54
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72,746 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Depending on conditions they can be built on a lot sooner. Readings stadium was built on an 8 or so years closed dump - the stadium integrates gas venting


  • #55
    spillit67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭spillit67


    I see a local TD wants the NTA to look at using the Fassaroe site for the Luas Bray extension eventually. I’m not sure how this lines up with the previous proposals to bring it in via Little Bray to the DART although I did see the latest NTA map seemed to suggest the Luas would split at Bray, I’m assuming with the thinking being that they can go the other side of the N11 to put in place a P+R.

    https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wicklow/bray-news/sale-of-280-acre-site-is-opportunity-to-bring-luas-to-bray-says-wicklow-td/a611272719.html



  • #56
    loyatemu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,579 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    the previous proposed route had it splitting with one branch going to Fassoroe and the other to Bray Dart.



  • #57
    p_haugh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Having the Fassaroe branch linking up to the proposed P&R there would be quite beneficial for those further south.



  • #58
    spillit67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭spillit67


    Does it make sense to push further south to Southern Cross with it?

    You’d be bringing more parts of Bray and the tip of Greystones into direct catchment.



  • #59
    prunudo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,056 ✭✭✭prunudo


    The Luas has no place going to Bray, it is an urban tram system, and has no place trundling though green fields at 60kph.

    Whats needed is high frequency, high speed public transport linking, bray and n11 to Sandyford, west dublin and beyond, to give an alternative to cars using the m50 to commute.



  • #60
    joeymcg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81 ✭✭joeymcg


    Unfortunately the M50 is a commuter Motorway and will always be that



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  • #61
    spillit67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭spillit67


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122597222#Comment_122597222

    This sort of stuff is unhelpful.

    Yes in an ideal world that’s what we’d have.

    Also in an ideal world the builders of the Kingstown line and beyond would have gone a mile more inland everywhere as well but they didn’t.

    We have to deal with the infrastructure we have in place and to see how we can develop it further. There are micro business and educational hubs around the south east of Dublin (Bray, Dún Laoghaire, Cherrywood, Sandyford, Blackrock, UCD) that can see improvement in their connectivity without even considering the city centre.



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