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Luas Green Line - Bray extension

  • 29-04-2019 4:09pm
    #1
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/luas-line-to-bray-may-serve-wicklow-boom-j92tg0jl8

    This is in the news again. As it stands, planning on this is to begin when TII free up staff currently working on Metrolink in the coming years.

    Of course, this will add considerable pressure to the Green Line north of Sandyford, in addition to the mess that is the M11 and the heavily constrained DART line.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭ recedite


    Its a no-brainer really.
    Its hard to believe the staff weren't able to spend time thinking about this before, because they were so busy thinking about running a train out to Sandyford along the Luas track.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    recedite wrote: »
    Its a no-brainer really.
    Its hard to believe the staff weren't able to spend time thinking about this before, because they were so busy thinking about running a train out to Sandyford along the Luas track.
    The TII staff are currently still working on Metrolink. They will be redeployed to the Finglas/Bray/Lucan/Poolbeg Luas lines when that work on Metrolink is complete.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,212 ✭✭✭ Thrashssacre


    Personally would prefer the line to run alongside the n11 past kilmacanoge and to a park and ride which would allow people get out of their cars before reaching the m50 junction bottleneck.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭ recedite


    marno21 wrote: »
    The TII staff are currently still working on Metrolink. They will be redeployed to the Finglas/Bray/Lucan/Poolbeg Luas lines when that work on Metrolink is complete.
    OK, so they might eventually get a chance to think about this in a few years time.
    Maybe in a lot of years time.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    recedite wrote: »
    OK, so they might eventually get a chance to think about this in a few years time.
    Maybe in a lot of years time.
    Design work on Metrolink is to be complete by 2021. It's not that far away.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    marno21 wrote: »
    The TII staff are currently still working on Metrolink. They will be redeployed to the Finglas/Bray/Lucan/Poolbeg Luas lines when that work on Metrolink is complete.

    So 2027?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    recedite wrote: »
    Its a no-brainer really.
    Its hard to believe the staff weren't able to spend time thinking about this before, because they were so busy thinking about running a train out to Sandyford along the Luas track.

    Not along , on the Luas track. In order to create capacity for this kind of project.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭ recedite


    I'm not convinced that it would automatically put pressure on either the Luas or Dart lines.

    Firstly some of the platforms towards the end of the Luas Green Line have been under-utilised (although this is likely to change due to major building currently going on at Cherrywood)


    Secondly, linking up with quality bus corridors on the N11 and to the Dart gives more options for all, therefore some people will actually be traveling in the opposite direction at rush hour.

    In the same way that a ring circuit in electrical wiring, or a ring main in plumbing, allows for more capacity with less infastructure than two long radial circuits covering an equivalent area.


    Having said that, the extra capacity created by that effect would soon be absorbed by new developments at Fassaroe such as this one.
    An Bord Pleanála also highlighted that the housing project would not be sufficiently serviced by public transport and, as a result, the number of cars in the area would likely increase significantly.
    But hey, that's progress. Its better to stay ahead of the posse than a few years behind it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭ Dats me


    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Bray_Transport_Study_2019.pdf

    Here's the Bray Transport Study as published on the NTA's website


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Looks like the preferred Luas alignment in that document (thanks for linking).

    478993.JPG


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭ recedite


    N11 proposed upgrades in the vicinity; website is here.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    recedite wrote: »
    N11 proposed upgrades in the vicinity; website is here.
    N11 thread here also, best to discuss there.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057631449


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭ AngryLips


    Frankly I think priorities would be better served if Luas line F or Finglas extension put ahead of this project


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    AngryLips wrote: »
    Frankly I think priorities would be better served if Luas line F or Finglas extension put ahead of this project

    The NTA are in agreement.

    479000.JPG


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭ AngryLips


    marno21 wrote: »
    The NTA are in agreement.

    479000.JPG

    So why are staff being deployed to this project and not line F?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    AngryLips wrote: »
    So why are staff being deployed to this project and not line F?
    The above timeline is for construction/implementation rather than design. It's more the best use of funds at various points, design isn't a major cost.

    (For reference also, that was published in 2016 and may have been subject to change since. It certainly has in relation to DART Underground anyway).


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,142 ✭✭✭ prunudo


    As much as I welcome them looking into this, I'd much prefer if they put their energy into solutions for improving the current single track mainline south of Bray.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    jvan wrote: »
    As much as I welcome them looking into this, I'd much prefer if they put their energy into solutions for improving the current single track mainline south of Bray.

    Would be different design teams I believe. TII do Luas and Metro, Irish Rail do rail.

    Anyway, I'm not sure there is honestly much that can be done about Brunel's Folly.

    Also I don't see Luas to Bray now happening until the mess with Metro South is sorted, which I wouldn't be so certain about. I suspect Luas extension to Fingals and Poolbeg will get the attention now ahead of Bray.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,226 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    I have started a thread about the Bray-Greystones line here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057976745

    MOD:

    Threads:

    DART Bray-Greystones: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057976745
    M11/N11: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057631449
    Luas: this thread



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,142 ✭✭✭ prunudo


    I'm conscious of going off topic, so apologises in advance. I just fear that without a proper solution to both the n11 and the single track trainline that a greenline extension to Bray will just attract more people driving their private cars to use it.
    I think as a route it makes sense and will be great to link the dart line with Sandyford and Metrolink. In theory it could remove a lot of cars off the m11/m50 as it would be a great alternative for commuters but there needs to be proper thought in how best to get passengers to the stations without clogging the already stretched road network.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,205 Mod ✭✭✭✭ hmmm


    The NTA have waved their magic wand, and now apparently the LUAS line can deliver metro-like capacity without being upgraded. Just like that.

    Excuse me while I don't believe this. LUAS outbound is full until Dundrum stop for peak hours, and the proposed Metro will stop at Charlemont. The Brides Glen to Sandford section is about to see massive amounts of new building, and the line is criss-crossed by access to housing estates and shops.

    Adding a Bray connection would be madness.


  • Registered Users Posts: 152 ✭✭ Kevtherev1


    Any LUAS extension to Bray is totally off the table, until Metro is extended to Sandyford or Beyond. Its is that simple, no construction until the metro is extended.



    The idiotic decision not to extend metro to Sandyford until the 2030s means the LUAS extension to Bray wont happen until the 2040s. We should have been building a second metro line in the 2030s and third metro line 2040s.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Kevtherev1 wrote: »
    The idiotic decision not to extend metro to Sandyford until the 2030s means the LUAS extension to Bray wont happen until the 2040s. We should have been building a second metro line in the 2030s and third metro line 2040s.

    Well I wouldn't be surprised if the extension to Bray was rolled into the Metro south project. So that they both happen in parallel. It would help strengthen the case for the Metro South upgrade.

    I'd also expect the Finglas extension to happen well before that and probably a Northern extension to the Metro north of Swords to also happen in parallel. Both relatively easy, straightforward and cheap projects (above ground, mostly through fields) with lots of oppurtunity for new housing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,516 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    run the finglas line roughly where dunsink observatory is, high density apartments either side. Over the M50 and terminate in blanch shopping centre, with a massive multi storey park and ride? they could have another P&R just inside or outside M50


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    run the finglas line roughly where dunsink observatory is, high density apartments either side. Over the M50 and terminate in blanch shopping centre, with a massive multi storey park and ride? they could have another P&R just inside or outside M50

    That would be a Luas to Blanch not Finglas and is duplicating a lot of the M3 parkway line. The NTA's intention is for the Luas to finish at an N2 park and ride.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,516 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    That would be a Luas to Blanch not Finglas and is duplicating a lot of the M3 parkway line. The NTA's intention is for the Luas to finish at an N2 park and ride.



    running it across green field would be much cheaper. That low density sprawl in finglas, is a waste serving it. How many traffic conflicts will there be if they go to the village route? Going greenfield,it will still be in reasonable walking distance to most if not all of Finglas? Build it across green field, there must be several hundred acres there. Then continue it up northwest, to the proposed N2 P&R.

    there is another few hundred acres around the National aquatic centre, connect that with a driverless shuttle bus with a bridge over motorway to connect at the luas, inside the m50...


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 20,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭ bk


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    running it across green field would be much cheaper. That low density sprawl in finglas, is a waste serving it. How many traffic conflicts will there be if they go to the village route? Going greenfield,it will still be in reasonable walking distance to most if not all of Finglas? Build it across green field, there must be several hundred acres there. Then continue it up northwest, to the proposed N2 P&R.

    I assume with the assumption of turning those green fields into a SDZ and building thousands of apartments close to the stops. It does make sense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    running it across green field would be much cheaper. That low density sprawl in finglas, is a waste serving it. How many traffic conflicts will there be if they go to the village route? Going greenfield,it will still be in reasonable walking distance to most if not all of Finglas? Build it across green field, there must be several hundred acres there. Then continue it up northwest, to the proposed N2 P&R.

    Of course it would be cheaper , but that's not the point. The point is so serve Finglas, I'm not sure I'm following your route in my mind but it's serving basically no one. Blanch will be served by Dart. It won't go into the village it will be going straight up the north road so 1 maybe 2 traffic conflicts. Define walking distance? The Cabra Luas is closer to Finglas Village than Dunsink Lane


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    bk wrote: »
    I assume with the assumption of turning those green fields into a SDZ and building thousands of apartments close to the stops. It does make sense.

    Those fields are the old dump . Is that mature enough to be built on yet?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,516 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    Those fields are the old dump . Is that mature enough to be built on yet?

    no idea!


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