Clarity on new Current Affairs rules

odyssey06 · 08-09-2024 04:21PM #1

There have been some dramatic new rules announced for the Current Affairs forum only as per below linked post. I have started this thread to get clarity on these. This is not intended as a thread to discuss pros and cons, but to get clarity on what is intended by them.
If clarity is not available at present, I suggest locking this thread until such time as it is.

Given that warnings are no longer subject to discussion \ appeal, this makes it extra important that rules are clear to follow.

1 Piling On Posters

What is "piling on posters"?
I had a quick google of discussion etiquette but there was no clear definition, and it seems to clash with the statement that "debate can be more robust".

2 A Posters Previous Posts

"bringing up a posters previous posts from other threads/forums"

Does this include across threads on the CA forum discussing similar subjects e.g. immigration, US politics, Irish party politics. There can be overlap in thread content. The current rule as written means it would not be possible e.g. to point out contradictions or inconsistencies in such similar post content across the forum by a poster.

3 Meandering versus Off Topic

"threads will be allowed to meander"

Is it possible now to ever be "off topic" in CA or to "derail" a thread?
Or is there still a distinction between "off topic" and "meandering"?

4 Mod Warnings Still Relevant?

Mod warnings in the opening posts of the most active long running CA threads may need revision in light of the new rules e.g. the Zero Refugee thread has very strict rules on its scope which does not seem to permit any "meandering".
Or are they are still in force on their specific thread?

5 Coronavirus Forum

The coronavirus forum is a sub-forum of Current Affairs.
Do the new rules apply there?

Note, posted in Help Desk as per forum charter:
If you have a query, need help, or wish to discuss issues with a forum or moderation, please use the Help Desk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058368026/new-rules-for-the-ca-forum

odyssey06 · 08-09-2024 04:52PM

Re: Concern Trolling which is also mentioned.

I am assuming this definition is broadly correct

https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/concern-troll/

Spear · 08-09-2024 05:54PM

On a similar note, I've also asked how they want to deal with Helpdesk complaints about warnings/bans etc instead, or if they're also ruled out.

Witcher · 08-09-2024 06:32PM

It would be interesting to know how the new rules were arrived at and who decided them.

On Page 53 below on the 21st August, Big Bag of Chips said - 'People have overwhelming voted for there to be a clamp down on bickering, aggressive posting, derailing threads. Aggressive language and aggressive language directed at another poster falls under this. Posters are now aware to try to be more civil in their replies.'

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058361419/site-is-a-graveyard-how-can-boards-save-itself-any-update

Yet the new rules are essentially the complete opposite of this and are now a hands off, lunatics running the asylum job.

From what I recall one of the themes of that feedback thread was that people felt the middle ground was being eroded in CA discussions and that people taking the piss posting across multiple threads and shitposting was the primary cause of it. The new rule set only serves to remove whatever was left of that middle ground imo and the place will just be left to the usual shitposters and trolls now.

What was needed was more mods and people causing issues removed, permanently. Instead we've the same amount of mods but the rules softened. The change to the forum access rules was good but the latest changes re to a hands off approach is a step backwards imo.

nachouser · 08-09-2024 07:17PM

Early days, but on the whole it seems like a good approach to me. No DRP for CA, no back and forth in PM's for mods, and a clear cut way for users flagged as "being a d*ck" to cool off for a day, three days, etc. I'm sure it'll hit me at some point, but hey ho. I think we can already see the 7 day / 50 post thing has worked well. I'm going to side with the folks giving up their free time to have decided how best their free time should / can be used.

Edit: I also think the recent posting restrictions go someway toward answering the question about quantity over quality regarding posts / traffic.

Tell me how · 08-09-2024 07:48PM

From the new Rules thread.

Low level snark/ personal abuse, concern trolling, sealioning, victim blaming, piling on posters, link dumping and bringing up a posters previous posts from other threads/forums are specifically not allowed , as these seem to have operated in a grey area until now.

I don't see how a more hands off approach to modding and this point are compatible. Whether or not something falls foul of this rule is going to extremely subjective and will lead to a lot of cases where some posts are being actioned, but more not when the content is essentially the same in both posts. I feel this will lead to warnings being issued just because a poster wishes to report a post and it is not feasible for a mod to accurately determine is this valid content or not and they'll likely issue a warning with the justification, it's just 1 day ban or whatever.

What is 'piling on' for example? One poster in the feedback thread claimed it whenever more than one poster challenged them? They also gave a lot of examples of just how difficult it is for them to tolerate views that don't agree with them, how is their claim of piling on going to be assessed?

I hoped we'd end up with a more adults being adults type of environment, this rule makes me think it may instead be a step in the opposite direction. Why shouldn't a posters posts from another thread be mentioned? Why should they not be asked to stand by a statement they have made?

pjohnson · 08-09-2024 07:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595453#Comment_122595453

It seems to be a way to allow the regular trollers get away with tanking threads for longer if they are allowed to constantly get a clean slate every thread. Serial offenders will be let run wild.

nachouser · 08-09-2024 08:01PM

Give it a week or two lads before you already make your minds up:-)

I see it as giving posters the ability to hang themselves more easily and get a ban for it. Without unnecessarily tying up those giving the ban days of back and forth.

Quantum Erasure · 08-09-2024 08:48PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595013#Comment_122595013

Thanks for posting that, I would have thought it was performative 'social justice warrior' -ing

Jim_Hodge · 08-09-2024 08:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595259#Comment_122595259

Rules were changed because a very small number of posters on a thread kept banging on about what they didn't like. I read the new rules as a free for all. I'd love to hear the rationale behind them. And an amnesty was madness.

Ten of Swords · 08-09-2024 10:28PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058368153/clarity-on-new-current-affairs-rules

I want to address a few of the questions posted here, and address what appear to be a couple of misconceptions, but I cant write out a long post right now so I'll be brief

1- Piling on is where two or more posters talk directly about another poster (who may or may not be part of the conversation) generally making personalised remarks about them

Eg. Poster X said this previously, they're clearly wrong/stupid/misguided etc.

Yeah I agree, Poster X is a moron...

Yep, look what they said/did here...

And so on. Do not discuss other posters on thread as this is often the end result.

2- Bringing up a posters previous comments kind of ties to the above example too. You don't need to get personal with posters to challenge their views. Also, we have had situations in the past where people have brought up sensitive issues that were posted about in confidence on the old platform (from the PI or RI forums) for petty point scoring and that is extremely unfair.

3- Meandering. Threads will be allowed to go slightly off topic into semi related areas without a flurry of warnings and bans being issued. An example would be the recent thread about the stabbings in Germany thread that began to lean heavily into an immigration discussion. There have been plenty of arguments put forward for allowing the natural evolution of discussion (but we don't have Reddit style comment stacking so it can be convoluted to follow). This does not mean the thread starts as one topic and ends up as something completely different

4- Mod warnings are still relevant but where there is confusion it will be looked at on a case by case basis. Threadbans are no longer being issued and all existing threadbans in CA are now void. It would be helpful if posters could report threads that still have a threadban list so it can be deleted. Please also report any thread that you think has instructions that may conflict with the updated rules.

To my knowledge the only thread that has a custom rule is the Zero Refugee Policy thread which specifically forbids anecdotes.

5- Covid forum is not affected by these updated rules

pjohnson · 09-09-2024 12:36AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595646#Comment_122595646

I guess the rereg ban caused a drop in activity so the gates got flung open with all threadbans binned.

Be interesting how long the free for all will last anyway or if the small number demand all moderation be removed next.

Quantum Erasure · 09-09-2024 01:45AM

I think the main takeaway from the previous feedback thread was, it was the lack of consistency that really annoyed people.

I'm just back from a 24 hour ban over a trivial matter, but the two posters in the chain of comments before mine, and at least one after it, should have been hit if my comment triggered a ban

I don't want anyone banned for such trivial ****, I didn't report any posts because there was absolutely no need to

And I can't have this conversation in private with the mod, so here I am...

To keep this 'on topic', I was banned for going off topic in directly rebutting a point made on thread

1. In response to multiple claims that the moderation in CA is too strict, we are going to reduce moderation to a more hands off level
- threads will be allowed to meander, debate can be more robust and warnings will not be given for very minor infractions.

This is it · 09-09-2024 07:15AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122595871#Comment_122595871

I'm a bit lost on this point

"2- Bringing up a posters previous comments kind of ties to the above example too. You don't need to get personal with posters to challenge their views. Also, we have had situations in the past where people have brought up sensitive issues that were posted about in confidence on the old platform (from the PI or RI forums) for petty point scoring and that is extremely unfair."

No personal attacks is a site wide rule on boards, I'm pretty sure mentioning PI/RI outside of those forums is also banned.

Your new guideline specifically states "threads/forums", can you clarify if a poster claims one thing in a CA thread, and then completely contradicts that in another CA thread, are they allowed to be called out for it? Your guideline would suggest not, which would make no sense to me.

odyssey06 · 09-09-2024 07:29AM

Also asking a technical question in relation to:

6 Duration of CA warnings & Prior Warnings

Do any previously applied warnings in CA count towards the new regime or are they outside the scope of this, but still part of general boards points warnings etc?

Do warnings applied under the new scale expire or are they permanent within CA?
e.g. someone in 5 years time who picks up 1 warning a year, would then face an automatic 3 month ban on next warning, not subject to appeal.

7 Helpdesk Forum Use \ Appealing

And I'll echo the point made by Spear - can the initial warnings or potential threat of next sanction be appealed \ queried via Help Desk forum?

Should the 7th & 8th warnings be appealed via DM and standard Dispute Resolution Process?

EmmetSpiceland · 09-09-2024 07:49AM

The mods, and admins, can’t be accused of not trying now. Obviously, not everyone is going to agree with them, and I, personally, think the “vocal minority” will be the ones to suffer the most, but these changes are a step forward.

Puts it all out there, if you want grown up current affairs/political discussion go to the “Politics” forum. If you want the comment section head to “Current Affairs”. It’s the bottom half of the internet.

I know they’re going to complain, still, when they cross the line, but with the changes to the dispute resolution process, it means the “Dispute Resolution” forum won’t be clogged with time wasters whinging about a “bias”.

Hats off to those in charge and good luck to all who post in there now.

pjohnson · 09-09-2024 07:57AM

it just allows time wasters more free reign to troll unaprehended like @This is it points out if they can freely flip flop they can troll even more?

And again as @Quantum Erasure highlighted unless theres more moderators than before if a thread is trolled into the bog then a lot of people could get caught out by the troll and end up sanctioned rather than the troll.

Tell me how · 09-09-2024 08:44AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122596238#Comment_122596238

I'm not so sure.

I find rule number 3 quite baffling. It's basically making it a lot easier for posters to get each other removed from threads but now with the added bonus that mods can't be asked to explain it?

This Is like the Premier League dealing with complaints about refereeing by giving players their own whistle.

Quantum Erasure · 09-09-2024 10:14AM

Not counting the most recent, I've had 4 warnings since i opened this account 5 years ago, (all in CA/IMHO I think). 2 of those have been overturned. A third should have been IMHO, but the mod never replied to a PM.

Some of these were zero point warnings, tbf, so I'm only on my third pointed warning now, but I'd have no way of appealing any of them, untill I rack up 7....

On my 7th warning, can I appeal any of the previous 6? What if it's the one in four that I'd think "you know what, I deserved that one" am I just **** outta luck?

odyssey06 · 09-09-2024 10:19AM

It will just kick the can down the road for the mods in terms of work if the 7th warning can be appealed, and then the previous ones reviewed in scope of that.

Another reason why important to get clarity on whether the warnings expire at all after a year or whatever.

Jim_Hodge · 09-09-2024 10:38AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122596752#Comment_122596752

That's a good point. When someone has enough points for an appeal do the Mods then have to review all the posts that led to that total regardless of the time lag, threads or forums they were accrued in?

pjohnson · 09-09-2024 10:46AM

It seems it really wasn't thought out...

09-09-2024 10:53AM

These rule changes will affectively allow the lunatics to take over the asylum.

If minor infractions will no longer receive warnings - then just call it what it is - they are no longer infractions.

BETTER and more CONSISTENT moderation was what was needed, not LESS.

Raichų · 09-09-2024 10:57AM

in all fairness where did ye expect more mods to come from? It’s not as if Odhran can throw up an ad on indeed.

I would argue it’s only fair to give the idea a few weeks or possibly a few months to see how it all pans out. Maybe it will work splendidly and maybe it won’t.

I think some people just won’t be happy unless the mods all become nazi mods and even at that they’ll only be placated provided that nazi mod never touches them. Then it’s a big problem again and the next idea is being trialled.

Give it some time and then make a judgement on what a disaster it is if indeed it becomes one.

Place hasn’t fallen apart yet so that’s a good sign at least.

Quantum Erasure · 09-09-2024 10:59AM

I posted this in the 'Site is a graveyard, any update?' thread just a month ago

They don't have to read every post, but they should at least read the context in which a post is made if they're handing out warnings

Maybe with the time freed up from not having to engage in back and forth PM exchanges, this would be possible?

Candlel · 09-09-2024 11:04AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122596187#Comment_122596187

What about younger men? Or older women. Is it only middle aged men are at fault?

EmmetSpiceland · 09-09-2024 11:05AM

Yeah, the appeal after the 7th and 8th warning wasn’t a great idea. Should be no appeals.

They’ve made it more difficult to receive a “sanction” so anyone racking up multiple ones really doesn’t deserve any appeals.

09-09-2024 11:15AM

I honestly can not believe what I'm reading. How anybody looking at the recent feedback thread could conclude that Rule 1 & 2 were the way to go is just beyond me. You are pandering to a group of posters that did not deserve to be pandered to. You've just made a bad situation even worse.

Ten of Swords · 09-09-2024 11:17AM

People seem to be equating hands off moderation with no moderation at all, that is not the case.

Anyway I will try to answer some more queries as they have come up

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122596033#Comment_122596033

That's nice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122596166#Comment_122596166

Maybe, but nobody can seem to find these rules written down when they go looking for them so, as I mentioned earlier, issues like these have been a grey area and we are clarifying that they are explicitly not allowed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122596188#Comment_122596188

Prior warnings - we are trying to start everyone off on the same footing but the mods know who the serial troublemakers are and who has already accumulated lots of warnings already and they will be actioned as and how we see fit. If we need give a poster a lengthier ban due to their past behavior then that's what they will receive.

Do warnings on the new scale expire - no

Helpdesk - Initial warnings cannot be appealed and mods/admins won't engage if they are. Spear and Shield can decide what threads the Helpdesk/Feedback and DRP forums host but my understanding is constructive feedback and suggestions. If there is mod feedback or complaints then the helpdesk forum would be the correct place to lodge it but warnings will not be discussed there by any of the CA moderation team.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122596752#Comment_122596752

That's nice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122596780#Comment_122596780

Any warnings prior to the 7th (ie a 6 month ban) are absolutely out of scope and trying to bring them up will likely end the appeal