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French man accused of drugging his wife and inviting men to rape her

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,021 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    it’s my fault because I’m a man

    I'm sure you'll be able to post up a post where I said this?

    You wouldn't just be making sh1t up, would you?

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭OscarMIlde


    That's a good point, and just as men often have an insight into other men with questionable behaviours, so often do women see how men can behave with vulnerable women in private but put on an upstanding gentleman facade to other men. I struggle to believe that neither Joseph Fritzl's wife nor his friend who he frequently went to Thailand with didn't know he was an evil man.

    The men who participated in this have been described as normal men, most in employment and some married or in relationships. This doesn't mean that people in their social circles necessarily felt the same way. I've known absolute creeps who are married or in relationships. Being a creep isn't illegal so it's not something anyone can act on, and it doesn't mean they would engage in criminal behaviour anyway. It's people like Wayne Couzens, who can brazenly bring prostitutes to work gatherings, and have fellow police officers turn a blind eye that I struggle with. He should have been booted out of the force for that as he could never be trusted to do the right thing regarding protecting women.

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Not to mention the 30 who knew about the rapes but didn't bother reporting it, which is itself against the law in France

    Why do you keep repeating this gobbledygook.

    83 suspects. 72 rapists. 72 from 83 is not 30.

    Ah yes prioritize the “mental health” of victim A while nothing gets done by anyone else to prevent Victims B through Z. Brave stance there. Slow clap.

    Im sure you have some evidence to suggest police haven’t bothered to look for the others 🙄 some of the accused who have been charged are geriatric, are you sure those who haven’t been charged are even all still alive to have their names dragged through the papers? The dead aren’t put on trial. For that matter where do you get your assumed figure of 98% from? And even were that figure true your attitude on display only works in practice to make such a figure 100% with defeatist shyte

    The other poster wasn’t guilt tripping stop deflecting because you can’t handle criticism dear the only one guilt tripping here is you, guilt tripping men everywhere the world over



  • Site Banned Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Raichų


    yes it’s called a criminal trial and the defence quite often will try to put a witness in an uncomfortable position and ask questions to ascertain truth.

    I was a victim of a road traffic collision namely I got knocked off an escooter at a roundabout. When in court the defence solicitor argued to me it was my own fault and negligence that caused me to be struck. It was quite shocking for me at the time to be met with that attitude but at the same time your mans solicitor was hardly going to try and have him prosecuted now was he?

    You’re a funny one to be honest, you expect men to sort it out, will do nothing yourself only hinder justice being sought and love to say it’s “all your fault”.

    The arrogance of you to stand there and tell me you don’t have to help a victim seek assistance because you’re not a rape charity? Fcuk yourself OP to be honest. How dare you pretend to care when you wouldn’t lift a finger to help someone.

    You want to accuse me of victim blaming but what have you done to help victims? Nothing. You continue to do nothing here more than accuse us all of being responsible while simultaneously trying to absolve yourself of any responsibility because “I don’t rape people”, well guess what, I don’t fcuking rape people either.



  • Site Banned Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Raichų


    I’m not going to tell you what you’ve said. Go and read your own OP. I’m not hand holding you and underlining where you’ve attempted or outright blamed men as being culpable in any or all sexual violence towards women. You’ve expressed that sentiment throughout this thread both directly and indirectly so please don’t act stupid.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    law changes being talked about being pushed look to make this easier for the victims in the EU/France, esp. in regards to consent and withdrawing consent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,021 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Yes, agree with all of that. One thing I do wonder though, "being a creep isn't illegal" - absolutely, but maybe if men weren't apparently so often perfectly happy to ignore their friends' legal-but-creepy behaviour in minor ways, there would be less of feeling of impunity among all men to treat women badly.

    It's a bit like banning the slapping of children: yes of course lots of parents who slapped their children in the past weren't abusers, but it's about making certain behaviours socially unacceptable long before they get to the point where a minority go over the line into physical abuse. It also removes the abusers' excuse of "I was only…"

    For example Alan Hawe (and other abusers) being seen as a great man by all his friends - in some cases even AFTER he had murdered his family. How is that possible?

    (But no doubt the usual woman-haters will ignore this in favour of personal abuse. Because the reality is, there are a number of male posters on here who just want this thread shut down. The last thing they want is any discussion of the issues. That's on them, but it's worth pointing out.)

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    (But no doubt the usual woman-haters will ignore this in favour of personal abuse. Because the reality is, there are a number of male posters on here who just want this thread shut down. The last thing they want is any discussion of the issues. That's on them, but it's worth pointing out.)

    Are these imaginary people, “woman-haters,” are they in the room with us right now? Get a grip. Your misandry is on full ass display.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,634 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    It’s jaw dropping that someone who thinks the crimes of some freaks in France are reflective of men in general and that no men can be trusted would then have the audacity to call anyone else haters of any gender.

    the sheer rage is terrifying and casting aspersions on others is hypocrisy on a biblical scale



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,021 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    So much sea-lioning in this that I'm not going to reply to it all, but as for the rape statistics, it's well-known - and if your ignorance is really on this basic level you really should consider sitting down and shutting up. Maybe even consider learning from those who do have a clue.

    In the year to September 2021, just 1.3% of rape cases recorded by police resulted in a suspect being charged (or receiving a summons). This compares to a 7.1% charge rate for all other recorded crimes in the same period.

    That's 1.3% of recorded cases even leading to a charge, not to a conviction.
    It's currently UNDER 1% for a conviction, and still falling. Previously it used to be around 1-2%

    Yet you think that telling a woman who may be almost suicidal already that if she doesn't take those odds, and go to the police, and potentially put herself through a court case, it will be her fault if another woman is raped because it's the lack of women reporting rape cases that "emboldens rapists" is NOT victim blaiming?

    Really?

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    you really should consider sitting down and shutting up

    Why is it always furious projection from you. First you cry it’s the “women-haters” shutting down the thread then there you are shrieking through the keyboard to shut down people who challenge your misandrist world view.

    there’s no sealioning in my post. You just don’t want to admit you’re utterly wrong about 30 of the men not raping her. The number is 11 and you got it twisted up.

    England isn’t the world. In the US the clearance rate for rape is 26%.

    some numbers around the EU:

    IMG_6047.jpeg

    Cultural differences will affect the clearance rate in a jurisdiction too, Sweden for instance it is apparently very common for people to not have the same do nothing attitude as you display, they report it when it happens:

    IMG_6048.jpeg

    You’re being a chancer chancing both arms and legs to make it out Englands stats are true the world over.

    https://www.hoplofobia.info/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/2020-Reported-and-cleared-rapes-in-Europe.pdf



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭aero2k


    On one hand they say it's only the fault of the rapists, on the other it's the fault of the victims for not participating in a system stacked against them. Which is it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,021 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    No I already explained this to you. Pélicot has admitted his crimes against his wife and is cooperating with the police. As part of that, he has fully described his methods and how it all worked. One of the things he explained was his estimation that 3 in every 10 who initially contacted him dropped out when they learned the detail of his actions.

    We don't know yet why they dropped out - it may come out during his testimony. It coudl be because they didn't want to/didn't quite dare actually rape an unconscious woman, or it could be because they didn't see the interest in raping a 60-70 year old woman, but might have been up for it had she been 30 or 35.

    You know this because I gave you a tweet from a journalist covering the court case, and you've decided that you don't want to believe it. Which is of course entirely your right. You can even accuse her, as some of the defendants have done, of simulating being unconscious. But don't pretend that you think it's my misunderstanding of your calculations.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    You're just giving me the confirmation that you got it wrong even if you can't see the wood for the trees there.

    Despite what a rapist sex ringleader has tried to tell authorities, her own daughter placed the number for us all at 72 rapists. The suspect list police have is 83, they have that from the trove of irrefutable evidence he kept, thousands of photos, videos, texts, etc.

    That puts the number at 11 who are suspects but didn't rape her. And one of those men is charged raping his own wife. So that leaves at most, 10 men who meet the talking point.

    The only way the thread got to 30 was from users tripping over your bollocks from the perp in the OP, first going on that "30%" didn't rape her, then alliterating that number to simply be "30 men." Somewhere in there you even claimed "over a hundred" raped her - in direct contradiction to the daughter, who I think would know far better than you about all of this.

    https://www.news18.com/world/my-father-let-72-men-rape-my-mother-daughter-of-frenchman-reveals-he-kept-her-pictures-in-underwear-9039595.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,021 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    LOL you really are digging those holes again aren't you?

    What have Swedish and Danish data to do with any of this? I gave you English data because you obviously don't speak French, and because it's relevant to people on here. Swedish law is very different because there's an onus on the accused to prove consent, which French law, like UK law, doesn't have. I don't know about Germany, Denmark or Norway, but I'm sure you'll be able to tell us whether it's the same? I mean, you wouldn't have just gone looking for data that suited your point without knowing whether it was comparable, now would you? 😁

    Here's some French data though if you like (I presume you'll admit that French stats are relevant to this case?)

    En dix ans, le nombre de condamnation pour viol n’a cessé de diminuer, comme celui pour agressions sexuelles. 80 % des plaintes sont classées sans suite. 

    "In 10 years, the number of convictions for rapes has fallen constantly, as it has also for sexual assaults. 80% of complaints are dismissed without going to court."

    That's not a direct comparison with the UK data because I'm not spending time looking for stuff you're going to ignore anyway, with your constantly sealioning, but for anyone who's interested, that's only 20% that even go to court, and of those, I haven't found how many result in a conviction, but the answer is clearly nowhere near "all of those". It's not like the US judicial system where everyone plea-bargains because they're most likely going to be found guilty anyway. So if the total conviction rate reaches 5% of the reported cases, I'd be amazed. it's far more likely to be close to the UK's 1 or 2% as I described earlier.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    What have Swedish and Danish data to do with any of this?

    Exactly my point. Yet you bring up England's data like it has anything to do with this. Well done. You got there. We've established your claim that 98% of rapes go unpunished is unproven bollocks.

    Your link doesn't say anything about the clearance rate, it is just a story about an increased rate of reports published in 2022. Keep digging!

     It's not like the US judicial system where everyone plea-bargains because they're going to be found guilty anyway. 

    Interesting… so there is reason for women to report after all. Fascinating, yet you claim there's no point and you'd be advising them what is the use - you, your attitude is part of the problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,021 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Yes, that's the calculation, with just one difference: 72 suspects, but only 50 in court, because 22 either couldn't be identified or have since died. So the second part of your post may be overestimating the numbers, it there may not be another 8 or 9 unknown who didn't follow through.

    I say may because Pélicot has said he advertised on a number of social media sites, so we don't know how many other men also saw his ads, and we also don't know if all the videos over 10 years have all been kept. It wouldn't be surprising if some had been lost - that happens.

    So at the very least about 30.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Your math is completely out of whack, at this point it's almost like you're doing it on purpose to sealion.

    It's 83 suspects

    Over the course of their investigation, the police found more than 20,000 videos and photographs, many of them dated and labeled, in an electronic folder titled “abuse.” The timeline they built began in 2011. The list of suspects grew to 83.

    It's 72 rapists

    https://www.news18.com/world/my-father-let-72-men-rape-my-mother-daughter-of-frenchman-reveals-he-kept-her-pictures-in-underwear-9039595.html

    1 of the suspects didn't rape her.

    Only one of the men is not charged with rape, assault or attempted rape of Mr. Pelicot’s wife. Instead, that man is accused of following the same model, and drugging his own wife to rape her. Mr. Pelicot is also charged with raping the man’s wife while she was drugged.

    That leaves your asspull "very least about 30" number to be precisely 10.

    I know it's hard for you to admit you're wrong here, but math is math.



  • Posts: 832 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    These are the Irish stats

    From 2012 to 2022, there has been an average of 25 female rape victims per 100,000 women in Ireland per year – the sixth highest in Europe.

    This equates to 6,683 women in Ireland reporting that they were raped to the gardaí during that period. Reports have risen from over 400 a decade ago to over 800 in recent years. In 2022, 869 women were recorded as victims of rape.

    They referred to last year’s Sexual Violence Survey by the Central Statistics Office (CSO) which found that “only 5% of those that experience sexual violence as an adult have reported it to the police”. This was 12% of those who experienced this crime as a child.

    What you failed to point out in your stat link is the definitions of "clearing" and the parameters set out in each country.

    Researchers on the investigative team say the “extremely high number” of rape victims in Sweden can be explained by recent changes to the country’s definition of rape, where non-consensual sexual contact, such as acts committed against someone in “a state of fear or unconsciousness”, are now included.



  • Site Banned Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Raichų


    so now again you are detailing problems but offering nothing in the way of a solution.

    What is YOUR proposed solution to all of this?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    What you failed to point out in your stat link is the definitions of "clearing" and the parameters set out in each country.

    The definition of clearance rate is a common knowledge definition but for those who may not know, it is the number of crimes leading to resolutions such as arrest vs. the number of those crimes reported.

    What you failed to point out in your stat link is the definitions of "clearing" and the parameters set out in each country.

    I didn't fail to point that out 'in the link' it's in the link (I'm not the author of what's in the link either)

    https://www.hoplofobia.info/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/2020-Reported-and-cleared-rapes-in-Europe.pdf

    According to the statistics presented by the EU, Sweden has longhad the highest number of reported rapes per capita in Europe.According to the available statistics, the percentage of rapescleared in Sweden is also low compared with other Europeancountries. In many different contexts, the government, theMinistry for Foreign Affairs and Brå are questioned about theunderlying causes. In the light of this, Brå has conducted a studywhich aims to compile a better basis for answering suchquestions.

    It addresses your nitpick, and you can see in the graph I provided the 'standardized' stat offered for Sweden:

    image.png

    To obtain a more detailed picture of the possible significance ofthese differences, we have compared Germany and Sweden. Indoing so, Brå has recalculated Sweden’s statistics using the samelegal conditions and statistical methods as in Germany. Thecalculation shows that much of the differences in reports percapita disappear if the statistics are made more comparable.

    I hope that addresses your concern. Reading the graph provided one would have easily noted the bar on the chart that says 'Sweden | standardized' and if you had more questions about that, it's what the link to the source was to do. No need to google up links to Ireland, just click through to the link provided. My entire point what I mentioned, was the Sweden does have differing cultural propensities or however it wishes to be phrased, to be more proactive about policing rape instead of just telling a woman eg. there's no use, they'll just get away with it, etc. like the OP is, which helps no one and isn't a solution.



  • Posts: 832 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    from your own report

    The manner in which cleared-up crimes are calculated differs The countries differ greatly in terms of what is counted as a cleared-up crime. They also differ in terms of which rapereports the cleared-up crimes are to be divided by to calculatethe clear-up rate, and what time the statistics are prepared.To obtain a fairer picture, Brå has recalculated the countries’statistics on cleared-up rapes so that they are based on asequivalent principles as possible. In the recalculated figures, acleared-up crime is defined as a person being convicted of the13reported crime in a court of law. The influx of crimes is basedon the number of complainants who during a particular year have reported a rape which has been investigated by the police and where suspicion remains after the investigation.Figure 3 presents the average clear-up rate for rape during the period 2013–2017 using two different measurement methods.

    It doesn't clear up anything at all. I've provided the Irish stats for you, maybe it would be in your best interest to study those instead of copying and pasting walls of irrelevant text.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Irrelevant text is what you have thrown up from the Irish reporting.

    What still isn't clear to you? What does this paragraph say which you think is a gotcha to what I have said? Take your time, study what I said instead of jumping to a kneejerk reply.



  • Posts: 832 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think you're just deliberately being obtuse so as not to actually have to address the issue. I'll post it for you again.

    I even made it easy to read by highlighting the relevant information.

    “only 5% of those that experience sexual violence as an adult have reported it to the police”.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Kneejerk reaction again, and avoiding my question, I'll assume you don't even know what you are trying to argue against now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,346 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Oh dear, there are none so blind as those who will not see. Volchitsa explained the 3 out of 10 thing, that I can only conclude you have deliberately chosen to ignore.



  • Posts: 832 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Oh I can assure you I do.

    The propensity to report to the police most likely varies between countries Several different factors are considered to be able to affect the propensity to report a rape to the police. Two of these factors,which according to research are of importance to the propensity to report, are the prevalence of rape myths and public confidence in the criminal justice system.

    from your own report



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Posts: 832 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,725 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Are you? Is that it? That's a paragraph from the report, what about it? What argument are you trying to infer from it? Are you at a loss for words?



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