French man accused of drugging his wife and inviting men to rape her

volchitsa

So, this happened. It has been rumbling on for a few years now (it was covered in the NYT at least two years ago, but apart from that, doesn't seem to have got much coverage in English until now when the trial has finally opened and the woman (the victim) has chosen to forfait her right to anonymity and has even insisted that access be made public: the defence, and the judge, were originally going to hold it behind closed doors - allegedly to protect her. She had to fight for the case to be heard in open court.

France Confronts Horror of Rape and Drugging Case as 51 Men Go on Trial

A man is accused of drugging his wife and then inviting dozens of men to rape her over almost a decade. 

There is so much horror in this that I'm kind of afraid to say what I really think here. I will point out that he got over 70 men, all recruited fairly locally, nearly all (apparently) normal men, most with jobs and a partner, to rape his unconscious wife, in the marital bed - and while some of the men chose not to take part when they realised that she was really being raped (about 3 in every 10 men refused, according to the principal accused) at no point did even one man turn up at the house to say, "I'm not actually here to rape your wife, I'm here with the police". NOT ONE.

"Not all men", sure - but it turns out, "a heck of a lot of men" all the same, when the opportunity presents itself.

Former Former Former

What on earth do you expect any men here to say, other than this is an incredibly horrific story?

magicbastarder

was just talking about this with my wife; for me the outstanding fact was as you mentioned, 51 men (in the article i read it was reported as 51) 'partook' without any of them demanding to speak to the poor woman, or going to the police.

it was not simply that there were 51 men like that, it was the fact that they got to a string of (at least) 51 without anyone blowing the whistle.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583217#Comment_122583217

Far more than 51 - those are just the ones they could identify. There are over 70 different men filmed raping her. A couple have since died, and about 20 haven't been able to be identified, so are not on trial.

I think it's the husband, Dominique Pelicot, plus 50 others. Hence 51.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583214#Comment_122583214

Far be it from me to tell you what to say.

I could say plenty, personally. Far more than I've posted there.

If you don't have anything to say about it, then please, feel free to scroll on by.

Ten of Swords

Mod - Thread title updated

Deregos.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058367645/men-any-opinions-women-are-obviously-free-to-comment-too

That's a truly abhorrent case but you can't be suggesting that Irish men are as highly sexually deviant as French men . . cause we're obviously not.

Donald Trump

He was looking for weirdos on weirdo websites and chat sites. It's hardly that surprising that none of them blew the whistle.

To expect otherwise would be similar to making friends on boards.ie and then being surprised if you meet them in person and they turned out to be a weirdo - albeit maybe not quite a rapey one. YMMV with regard to the latter part.

There was a case in Ireland a good few years ago when someone posted online that their wife/girlfriend had some rape fantasy, looking for someone to "play along" and attack her. Some fella took up the request and went along with it and attacked the woman and it turned out to be a complete setup. I can't remember what the relationship was between the poster of the ad and the victim. It might have been an ex-boyfriend or something. I think that the perpetrator was not convicted because he actually believed it was some sort of role-play and that the woman agreed

PmMeUrDogs

Abhorrent, twisted and vile don't come close to describing how horrendous this is.

That over 50 (closer to 80 by the look of it) men actually did this, and not one reported? Genuinely shocks me.

Then add in that the man apparently took intimate images of his daughter and daughters in law, raped a 19 year old and allegedly murdered someone? It boggles the mind that he was able to commit so many heinous crimes before being caught.

Gisele is insanely brave to go so public with this. Hopefully she'll heal to the best of her ability and be surrounded with love and support

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583254#Comment_122583254

From a woman's point of view, that's not a useful distinction to make though.

In practice, how is a woman to tell which men are the weirdos? Most of them were apparently perfectly normal, leading perfectly normal lives. Pelicot, the instigator, was initially described by his wife and children as a "lovely man, kind and caring". This was before they saw the videos, presumably.

He also didn't have to search too far to recruit the others - it was all within a fairly small zone. So unless there's some reason to think that particular small town and its surroundings make up some sort of "Little Britain" incestuous village - which AFAIK there isn't, then it's probably the same everywhere. Which means there are a lot of men living normal lives who are eager to rape an unconscious woman as long as her husband isn't going to punch their lights out.

volchitsa

We also don't know that he wouldn't have had just as much success with a more open format. It may have been the risk of a WOMAN denouncing him that stopped him putting a small ad in the local rag.

The facts are that most of those men were not known sex offenders, and were not marginals living on the edge of society either. There was a journalist, an IT specialist, several men who were or had been in the army, at least one fireman, a nurse (male, obviously) and so on.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583254#Comment_122583254

Oh and this is a very interesting point:

He was looking for weirdos on weirdo websites and chat sites. 

Yes indeed. So maybe the idea that people shouldn't be judged for their sexual "kinks" is turning out to be a mistake, as is the claim, that one still sees being made sometimes, that men having access to porn reduces sexual offending?

Maybe "kinkshaming" is actually a good thing?

anewme

It looks like he could have done this to his daughter too. Although it was on a fetish website, some of the men have said they thought it was "a couples game" and they both in on it. He certainly led them to believe that. Horrible case and so much admiration for the family who are supporting their Mum on this. Very brave lady.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583350#Comment_122583350

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Some weirdo looked for other weirdos on a specific website/chat-room dedicated to doing a certain illegal thing over a number of years and you extrapolate this to being representative of the population in general. There is probably a chatroom somewhere for people who like to dress up as smurfs while sticking mars bars up their arses. If you find it, don't be surprised if they aren't representative of the wider population. (You can PM me for the link if you want. We don't advertise it generally as Mars cut their sponsorship last year so we are hanging on until they reinstate it)

And the only mention of the origin of any of the perpetrators that I can see in the article is that the woman only recognised one of them as being a neighbour. I didn't see anywhere where it said they were all from her village/town/city/region.

magicbastarder

for the sake of transparency - i reported the thread as i thought the title needed to be objective. i see it has been changed.

but for f***'s sake, he got 70 men, in a row, at an absolute minimum, to either go along (or not go along but not raise the alarm) before he was caught. and if the claim that 30% of men did not go along, is accurate, we're looking at 100 men.

you might have hoped that by the third or fourth (or second or first), someone would have said 'no, i want to speak to her, or the police' - but 70, or 100?

screamer

I didn't read the details but thats horrific and of course its totally unfair to tar all men with the same brush…. there are millions of men in the world and some are bad, but i really believe the vast majority are not and would be disgusted to read such a horrific story. As for the numbers involved snd no one went to the police, chances are they all had the same deviant fantasies and they knew each other, horrible and disgusting. Poor woman, what a terrible betrayal of her by the man who should have loved and protected her most in the world.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583377#Comment_122583377

It is highly likely that the men who received the "invitation" were selected based on their chatting history or professed willingness to perform the act. According to the article, some were under the impression that the woman consented to be drugged as some kind of kink or fantasy. They may have genuinely believed that. Regardless, the fact that they were willing conspirators may have reduced their desire to report themselves.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583350#Comment_122583350

The world needs more shame.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583383#Comment_122583383

nope, not playing that game with you. Away you go and find insults another way 23.5 hours until thread closed! Tick tick tick

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583400#Comment_122583400

to take this at a bare mathematical level - let's say the chance of someone with these 'interests' reporting it was just one in 20 (which would be depressing in itself). like rolling a a 20 sided dice, and 20 is 'report it'.

it means the dice was rolled probably 100 times and not once did a 20 land. off to find an inevitable internet based calculator for those odds..

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583400#Comment_122583400

He put up an ad advertising his plan. They contacted him. Some have claimed to believe the woman was pretending to be unconscious (and one seems to have been so inexperienced that maybe (maybe?) that might just about have been possible. But for the most part, it appears that watching the videos shows that to be a nonsensical defence. The men knew. And the husband says that they knew. When they contacted him they then went onto a private subforum or site of his (I'm not sure which) called "Without her knowledge" to complete the plans. They knew.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583377#Comment_122583377

That is partly what's incredible about the case. But, the single most shocking thing is that a man who seemed normal and decent could do this to his wife. I don't think I've ever heard of a worse betrayal than this.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583413#Comment_122583413

if i have input the parameters properly into this site, the chances of him having been reported if there was a 1 in 20 chance any one of the perpetrators reported him, would have exceeded 50% by the 14th person contacted.

https://www.gigacalculator.com/calculators/dice-probability-calculator.php

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583392#Comment_122583392

Well there’s this:

“Which means there are a lot of men living normal lives who are eager to rape an unconscious woman as long as her husband isn't going to punch their lights out.”

and

“The facts are that most of those men were not known sex offenders, and were not marginals living on the edge of society either.”

I think the issue is that you didn’t read the article fully. The husband actively sought out sexual deviants, these were people who’d already expressed a desire to do things like this. Maybe you did read it fully and ignored this very salient point.

If I’ve misread your tone and you agree that this is only an issue for a tiny, tiny fraction of men, I’ll be delighted if you can clarify that.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583428#Comment_122583428

Well there’s this:

“Which means there are a lot of men living normal lives who are eager to rape an unconscious woman as long as her husband isn't going to punch their lights out.”

the facts of the case as reported, prove there were lots of men living normal lives, happy to rape an unconscious woman.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583427#Comment_122583427

you’ve answered your own question

“If one of the perpetrators reported him”

Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas. As soon as they agreed to it, they were complicit, even if they didn’t go through with the actual deed.

It’s a hellish thought but the chances of someone who would respond to something like this then deciding to fall on their own sword by reporting it and wrecking their own life in the process is a lot less than 1 in 20, it’s zero. These aren’t upstanding citizens, they’re subhuman scum, basic compassion is not in their tool chest like. And certainly none of them were going to hand over their computers as evidence…

JP Liz V1

Sick Ba$tards

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583377#Comment_122583377

Because it appears the circumstances of recruiting the men was, they had predisposition and premeditation, they were not, in fact, some stochastic cohort of men chosen randomly from among the husband's peer group, neighbors, etc. but from an unmoderated french website. The owner has since been arrested and their website shut down.

The chat room where most of the men met Mr. Pelicot was called “a son insu,” which means “without their knowledge.”

According to NYT some of the defendants have tried to assert defense against rape by alleging they… believed the husband's permission was sufficient, and others believed the wife had agreed to be drugged for sexual excursion. Whether there is any truth to those defenses, or they all were predetermined to date-rape her, it seems clear that none of them would have willingly gone to the police because of the predicament they chose to place themselves in.

I get why people just jumping in to the thread and reacting to the OP might get the mistaken impressions seemingly designed as a smear of men's attitudes in general, but it is clear from the facts in the case this was not a random sampling of men by any stretch. These men in particular are a curated group of some of the worst french society has on offer - and 5 of them are also charged with possessing child pornography. 1 isn't charged with raping the woman at the head of this case but rather following the husbands example and raping his own wife, and allowing the ringleader in this case to do so as well, for which he is additionally being charged.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583446#Comment_122583446

This doesn't make sense. They could have not raped her. There was nothing illegal in what they did up to that point.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583459#Comment_122583459

Weeelll, yes but….

They were all recruited locally. That means a lot of ordinary-looking men in a smallish area are in fact men with that predisposition. I don't see how to avoid concluding from that, that a lot more men than I certainly ever imagined are in fact predisposed to such acts.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583467#Comment_122583467

I find that shocking and I disagree, they had already discussed a conspiracy to commit sex with a woman without her consent (from a chat room titled 'without her knowledge' in french parlance) and had taken concrete actions to commit the criminal act, ie. showing up to the house and the bedroom. Now it's a different legal system but it wouldn't be unlike the US where they would catch child predators in the same manner on that show To Catch a Predator (before it was canceled because of the optics of that one guy committing suicide during a taping of an episode), the child predators in that operation would conspire with an undercover operative (mindful of entrapment law), posing as a minor, to have sex with them, and took concrete actions to arrive at an agreed address, with condoms etc. to engage in sexual acts, which was ample evidence the cops needed to complete warrantless arrests and for DAs to engage in prosecutions.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583467#Comment_122583467

??

I can’t claim to be an expert in French law but in Ireland, conspiracy to commit a crime is very definitely illegal, regardless of whether or not the crime itself happens. Planning to rape someone is a serious offence here, I’d be very surprised if it’s any different in France.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583459#Comment_122583459

maybe there was a suggestion that this was suggestive of 'all men', in which case i missed it.

but the fact remains that 70 men did go along - with a supposed 30 (the 3 in 10 by the main accused's testimony) refusing to go along. that's 30 men who smelled a rat, by the sounds of it, without reporting it. i know i'm approaching it from a coldly mathematical point of view, but for 30 men to each smell a rat and not report it - the length of the chain of missed opportunities - is mind boggling.

volchitsa

(I was looking for a link I saw earlier about where the men were from, which I haven't found yet, but there's a journalist who's live tweeting (in French) who posted this little anecdote:

https://twitter.com/MarionDub/status/1830520861448699989

It says: one of the accused (who was late) explained that he had accompanied his son on his first day back to school.

That's the sort of men they are. Monsters. But who look like anyone else. And there are at least another 20 still out there who haven't been found. Fooling their wives and children.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583485#Comment_122583485

The NYT article you shared (the same article twice, in the OP) does not say they were recruited "locally" or from a "smallish" area at all. The only thing it says in the context of what you're claiming at all is that this was part of an 18-month investigation "stretching across Europe." I wouldn't call Europe "smallish" or "local" to Avignon, France. Perhaps you could clarify where you derived your claim that they were all recruited locally.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583514#Comment_122583514

maybe there was a suggestion that this was suggestive of 'all men', in which case i missed it.

Last line of the OP:

"Not all men", sure - but it turns out, "a heck of a lot of men" all the same, when the opportunity presents itself.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583499#Comment_122583499

Some of them are still claiming that they thought it was roleplay. Do you really think that if someone called the police and said they were looking for roleplay but had come across someone who seemed to be doing it for real that the police would arrest that man instead of the actual rapists??

Not to mention that they could have called anonymously and given the name of the website and the IDs being used.

Be right back

The husband got caught because he was held on taking upskirt pictures of women. When house was searched, all these recordings of these men were found. I believe she has suffered with mental health issues since, unsurprisingly. Incredibly brave woman.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583501#Comment_122583501

Not if you think it's roleplay, so calling the subforum "without her knowledge" would be part of that - as long as you don't actually rape the woman. If when you discover it's not intended to be roleplay (because he starts to discuss what amount of sedative she'll have taken for instance, or the "rules" he put in place to avoid waking her, like them heating their hands in hot water beforehand) then no, there's nothing illegal.

The men who raped her can't claim not to know because they followed those rules, or were part of the discussion about what drugs she'd been given.

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583298#Comment_122583298

I'd honestly say Id find it surprising if there were lots of men living normal lives who are eager to rape an unconscious woman as long as the husband is OK with it

I can't imagine any men I know willing to go within an asses roar of such a situation even if there were no consequences ....personally there's nothing even remotely arousing about a situation like that...nothing....its revolting...and maybe I'm projecting but I cant imagine any lads I know even being remotely interested/willing to participate even if you removed all consequences...

Im taking what you say on board about him having not gone too far outside his area on board and Im still thinking he must've been selecting from a group of people that had a much higher percentage of well....not normal men....

I mean even if you didn't find it repulsive/abhorrent etc.....wouldn't you think about risk of being exposed, disease ....the weirdo that set it up....there must be something more at play...I can't imagine you could select across a broad cross section of unconnected men in society and get such a high percentage to participate in something like this

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583535#Comment_122583535

I'll leave that for their cross examination at trial or their criminal depositions for them to explain if it is relevant. The website would still lead investigators back to themselves. Clearly the men who didn't come forward feared criminal reprisal.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583529#Comment_122583529

to clarify - it does not state explicitly that it was the same investigation, and actually implies a different investigation. the 'across europe' reference seems to imply an investigation separate to the one under discussion.

"He met most of the men, the investigating judge’s report stated, in a chat room on a notorious, unmoderated French website implicated in more than 23,000 police cases in France alone from 2021 to 2024. It was finally shut down, and its owner arrested, in June after an 18-month investigation stretching across Europe."

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583514#Comment_122583514

Of course it's not all men, and I've never said it was.

FWIW I'm married and have two grown up sons and I think (hope!) they would never do anything of the sort.

But I am genuinely shocked to the core by this, and it's true I'm struggling to know how women are supposed to be able to continue to assume the best of men in general in light of it.

Not because I think it's all men, or even most men. But it's clearly far more men than I had ever imagined, (there was a similar thing in South Korea recently too, of men selling nude photos of their daughters to other men) so yes I'm actually rather shaken by it.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583557#Comment_122583557

it also says the victim worked in the paris area for 20 years before they moved to avignon at her retirement, she would have been about 62 when she retired (france retirement age pre 2023) and the police put the timeline of abuses at beginning about 2011, she's 71 now. So, that would put her retirement in about/around 9 years ago, ~2013 so the abuses would have begun in the paris area seemingly, if we are to extrapolate off the reporting in front of us and knowledge of french retirement ages.

"smallish" area, Avignon being down near Montpellier. Based on the reporting I don't think there are 70 rapists living within a brisk walk of the victim or something as the OP is trying to make it out as.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583459#Comment_122583459

Yeah the OP's agenda based narrative has confused things massively, even the title had to be fixed ffs. Its a crapshow.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583553#Comment_122583553

If I thought it was most men I think I'd probably go off and live on a desert island.

I'm not disputing that it's still a minority. But it's no longer sensible to go on assuming that it's a tiny minority. It's a significant number of men who appear to be perfectly normal - and that horrifies me.

nacho libre

The banality of evil.

People you may perceive as decent are sometimes anything of the sort, this goes for men and women. This shouldn't be a surprise to you Volchista if you are aware that most sexual abusers in this country are not held to account. They are very often people who tick all the boxes as upstanding citizens.

We don't like to think such people exist within our own neighbourhood much less in our own social circle.

Still I think it's better to give people the benefit of the doubt than assuming every man or woman you meet is potentially a sexual deviant. There are many people who would not engage in the vile acts these men did.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583554#Comment_122583554

No that's not the point. I'm not saying that the men on trial, who raped her, can reasonably make that defence (though some of them think they can.)

I'm saying that none of it was illegal (except for the husband of course) until each man reached a point where there was evidence that he knew that it was no longer just roleplay.

I gave examples of the sorts of events that showed that.

But someone who went into the forum genuinely thinking it was roleplay, and who then withdrew when they discovered it wasn't (according to Pelicot, that was about 30% of all the men who contacted him) - they committed no crime, so could easily have gone to the police and denounced Pelicot. Or done so anonymously.

And none of them did. That's another 30 men who chose to remain silent despite having done nothing except learn that a crime was being planned by another man.

(I think that non-denunciation of a crime is itself a crime in French law though - so by staying silent they may well have made themselves guilty of a crime. But that was their own choice.)

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583580#Comment_122583580

aside from that it’s a shocking case and good on the victim for getting it unsealed and treating it with daylight. It appears as though part of the reason she was so gung ho about the unsealing was to get the word out to the medical community, especially gynecologists and such who previously were unable to diagnose symptoms she has been having for years that would have led them to concluding she was being sexually abused sooner if they had more sufficient training and knowledge of the correlations

pjohnson

The weird narrative that 30 "good" men didn't rape her but are "bad" because they didn't report it is nonsense again.

That website seems to have been an absolute septic tank of deviants and freaks. I don't think any user ended up there by accident and not a single one of them could go to the police without incriminating themselves with whatever deviancy they WERE there for.

None of the people on that side were "good ordinary men"

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122583590#Comment_122583590

and it is sadly a modus operandi of abusers to deliberately present themselves as trustworthy members of their community and even seek out positions of power and trust within the community. Hence, why so many members of the you know what are secretly you know who’s