Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

The hospitality poor mouth

1246746

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,785 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    There's no mention of helping customers or passing on VAT to customers.

    Perhaps. But there is now.

    The VAT reduction was introduced to increase footfall in the hospitality sector and the only way to do that was if the sector passed it onto the consumer and the consumer saw a reduction in price. But instead the industry pocketed it and many businesses increased their prices too.

    The reduction in VAT to 9% wasn't meant to give Hoteliers, hairdressers and restaurant owners a few extra bob to put in their bank accounts. It was meant to encourage people to get out more.

    TBH, I wouldn't mind if the government did introduce a reduced VAT rate, so long as the reductions was passed on to the consumer and prices came down. But A. we know it won't, and B. there'd be no real way of making sure that it has been.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,683 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Well that's all true, but no industry is passing savings onto consumers. Sure some are posting record profits. My point is that the COVID VAT reduction was to benefit business, not consumers, so people shouldnt get salty about that.

    That said, takeaways arguably did much better during COVID and they still raised prices.

    Post edited by Padre_Pio on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,756 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    they didn’t abuse it. Inflation was crazy food, electricity, wages, insurance etc all went up significantly. If they were abusing it. They would not be closing



  • Site Banned Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Raichų


    no involvement in the industry

    no need to point it out your post made that very clear. No hospitality worker does the “most basic” of work. We all work a lot and hard at it. Obviously some jobs are harder than others physically and mentally but hospitality is not “basic” work. A lot of the time it’s shite work for shite money.

    Taking orders and delivering food to people who treat you like shite but you have to smile and shut up is shite. Washing dishes is shite. Peeling 100kg of potatoes is shite. So is working holidays, sometimes including Christmas and late nights. So is €12.70/hr really an unreasonable wage to put up with scarcely having a Saturday to yourself or having to cleaning up actual shite from a bathroom floor of the women’s toilet? (Didn’t happen to me but someone I worked with)

    Hospitality is one of the hardest working industries and ironically the worst paying jobs in my experience for what you’re expected to do. Most expect staff to do exactly what they’re asked without argument for minimum wage. I know people working places for years who only get a pay rise when the min wage increases!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭Packrat


    Ultimately it's a war about which end of the egg you open.

    Utterly irrelevant.

    4.5% makes your restaurant bill of €104.5 into €100.

    That's a cheapish dinner for two with drinks. (Starter x 2 @10, Mains x 2 @20, drinks - pint and a snipe@20 x 2 = 40 - total €100)

    I don't decide whether to take the missus for dinner based on 4.50.

    Neither does my local restaurant decide whether to stay open based in it.

    It's a red herring non-argument load of bollix.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 7,663 ✭✭✭Allinall


    You’ve a lot to learn about business and profit margins.

    4.5% is very significant.



  • Posts: 3,330 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yes , they can claim back the VAT that they pay on all of their expenses



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,611 ✭✭✭beachhead


    Would happen anyway if businesses run correctly.The last VAT decrease was never passed onto customers.So,never again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,611 ✭✭✭beachhead


    I paid e11.71 for 3 this week.Won't tell you where.That included a portion of delicious chicken nuggets.A yearly or twice yearly treat-I didn't eat them all myself



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,611 ✭✭✭beachhead


    Your comment about an interior designer's wet dream reminded me of an hotel I liked did the same.Room rates went up 80% afterwards and removed breakfast.Bye bye



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,413 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    I said was and were. So maybe think about raising your comprehension of English by a few bars before you post anymore snotty comments.

    My point was it has gotten way better not worse as someone else had stated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,203 ✭✭✭drury..


    Presumably the market for "fine dining" remains

    What % of the market is that potentially?



  • Posts: 832 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Well, one person and a cat and the cat is not going hungry. she chonky



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 803 ✭✭✭foxsake


    i don't know is the answer… maybe they should but maybe they need to use that money to shore up other holes.

    the base costs of food/drink has gone up not mind other costs.

    we see a lot of innovation- some are fantastic btw - with food , coffee trucks in carparks - fellas renting rooms or corners of existing premises… its good to see but the bottom line is it's a sign of the economic hardship..

    Is that what we want as a society ? I don't think so .

    The issues are not just VAT related. ..



  • Administrators Posts: 55,804 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I think one problem I have here is "hospitality sector" is just too broad a term. In there you have businesses such as:

    1. Locally-owned coffee shops
    2. Locally-owned restaurants
    3. Multinational coffee chains
    4. Multinational restaurants
    5. Locally-owned pubs
    6. Large pub conglomorates
    7. Hotels
    8. B+Bs

    I would be more onboard with helping some of these than others, but I don't know how you could structure any support to be so targeted.

    Maybe a tiered VAT system based on turnover?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 222 ✭✭turnfan


    This. And As businesses collect VAT on behalf of the Govt, it should have no material impact on the business, as it is not considered as part of net sales. Any business that reports in Gross Sales is thinking vanity, not sanity. I do understand it can impact certain price points but we are way past a coffee being €2.00 even for example.



  • Site Banned Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Raichų


    I worked for a restaurant whos wage bill for the kitchen was in excess of €3k a week. That’s just for the wages for chefs. Not to mention electricity and gas. Front of house. Food costs.

    It’s not cheap to own a hospitality business I don’t think the majority of places are trying to rob customers they’re trying to just make enough. I’ve worked in two places recently where out of the blue hours were just cut because there wasn’t enough money coming in.

    Well established places that were previously very busy but people just weren’t coming out like they used to. Generally I think people don’t go out nearly as often as pre covid. I think it’s partly due to realising it’s more convenient to have food delivered and usually cheaper.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,683 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    That's a fair point. A good few places have only started takeaway since COVID, and they're still at it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 946 ✭✭✭JPCN1


    Five restaurants/coffee shops I have used in the past have closed in the last 10 months. It seems a tough game at the moment and I personally wouldn't begrudge the industry a reduction in the VAT rate though I suspect the problems run deeper than that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,563 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    here’s a question.

    I think from memory vat on food in restaurants is around 13.5%.


    if the government said… “ ok from midnight Wednesday 4th of September, we are reducing it to 11.5% “

    How many restaurants will pass that saving on to the public by cutting menu prices ?
    Maybe it’s the cynic in me but my expectation would be that the majority of restaurants and pubs wouldn’t change their prices to encourage more customers, they’ll just stay the same and the businesses would pocket the extra 2.0%…..



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,584 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    In the USA, prices are always $ plus tax. It has something to do with taxes must be identified to the customer and taxes vary by state. In Europe, tax is always included so the price shown is the price paid.

    Price points is a marketing concept which gives rise to margins varying on similar products, but overall it does not matter overall to a business.

    Businesses know what products to have small margins and which ones can carry a large margin. Supermarket wine that costs €10 can cost €30 in a restaurant. But the same can apply to a sausage or egg when cooked and put on a plate. That is why restaurants do not supply supermarket wines on their wine lists but go for obscure names.

    The main problem with an increase in VAT is the inflationary effect on prices with no choice to the business to pass it on with no benefit to the business.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,709 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Where in the country is that?

    That is a lot of closures alright.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,831 ✭✭✭✭Geuze




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,831 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Supermac's profits 2022

    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2024/0515/1449357-supermacs-spent-6m-7m-on-accommodation-to-house-staff/

    Mr McDonagh made his comments on new accounts for Supermacs (Holdings) Ltd showing pre-tax profits increased by 15% to €34.02m in 2022.

    This followed revenues increasing by €80.6m or 41% from €195.69m to €276.2m in 2022.

    12.3% net margins



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,785 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    In fairness, it's not like people just suddenly realised that having food delivered to your door was more convenient than having to go out to get it. Everyone has always known that.

    Look, there's no great mystery here. It's simply a matter of price. It's just not worth the money to go out to a restaurant these days.

    There's no value in it. So a lot more people just aren't willing to pay what's being asked. Often times for pretty basic fare.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭Packrat


    @turnfan, I got told earlier that I needed to "learn how business works" when I pointed exactly this out, but from the customer point of view. I haven't replied to that poster, because I don't want points or a threadban, but exactly as you say, anyone who understands VAT (as I do very well, having run two VAT registered businesses for several years) knows this. One of those was a high turnover small margin business which survived successfully for over a decade.

    But these warriors who never made a € or £ that wasn't handed to them know more than us obviously.

    @Raichų , your figure of 3k pw means nothing without turnover/ profit figures as well. The turnover could be 50k pw - we dont know...and obviously you dont either or youd have told us.

    "Out" for food/dinner is in no way relatable to getting Camille or Domino's delivered. That's like comparing your local kebab joint to a proper restaurant.

    VAT is VAT. Value ADDED tax It's not part of the profit, nor is it supposed to be a means of reducing/increasing the prices paid by customers.

    Its about the smallest part of the problem in the industry, yet it's one of the two issues we hear the sad cries about - the other one being the minimum wage of the waiting staff.

    Is nobody going to mention the ignored warehoused tax that the owners thought would just go away if they waited long enough, and which is now coming home to roost? - that's the real story of why so many are closing.

    Watch how many of these restauranteurs will open new companies and new restaurant businesses over the next year.

    Does everything have to be spelled out to people these days????



  • Site Banned Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Raichų


    were they making €50k a week?

    No not even close.



  • Site Banned Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Raichų


    Can I ask what do you consider good value in going out for dinner? You’re suggesting the answer is clear there’s no value and the price is unreasonable.

    What do you mean by that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,138 ✭✭✭Deeec


    The problem is some customers seem to look at the food on their plate, think about what price they could buy that food for themselves and then (foolishy) decide that they're being ripped off. They ignore all the other costs that a restaurant has to cover within the price of their meal.

    People use all kinds of services every day and never question or complain about the price the way they do about eating out.

    Im an accountant and restaurants/coffee shops that I do accounts for are struggling with the high costs of insurance, rent, rates, food, utilities, staff etc. Some of the wages costs and esb/gas bills Im seeing are staggering. Its a hard business to make money in. People don't seem to realise the high costs involved and that in many cases they are currently getting really good value in what they are paying.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,007 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    the EU average for restaurant and catering is 15% so it is hard to see how it is possible that 13.5% is inappropriate.

    https://single-market-economy.ec.europa.eu/sectors/tourism/eu-funding-and-businesses/business-portal/financing-your-business/tourism-related-taxes-across-eu_en



Advertisement