The hospitality poor mouth

turnfan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122575099#Comment_122575099

There is something in terms of a retail price being under €2 / €5, esp in terms of impulse purchases, this may become eroded as we move cashless and inflation moves things to €5/€10

The issue is that small businesses think VAT take is "their money". It is not (as long as you don't think in terms of gross sales)

I heard an anecdote of a business "buying stuff" just to reduce the VAT bill - this seems CRAZY to me.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122577580#Comment_122577580

100%

I’ve seen a lot of time the argument that say a bag of chips being €3 is scandalous because a bag of potatoes only costs €5 or whatever other nonsense.

the cost of running a food service business is not just the cost of ingredients but no one seems to care when you try and explain this.

Generally speaking I find the only people who think restaurants and hotels charge too much for food are the ones who don’t work in one.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122577661#Comment_122577661

That is like people being conned into spending on something - 'to save money' - particularly if the 'something' is a product that they do not need or even want.

The old 'Buy one, get one free!' when you do not even want the one - even if it were free.

drury..

What percentage of the market is totally unaffected by all this

The fine dining restaurants who can charge what they like and the wealthy customers happy to pay

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122577991#Comment_122577991

There's not too many fine dining places that can attract the repeat customers five nights a week. It's a fickle market that's driven more by percieved popularity than quality of food.

Some places will always be popular but I hear some local restaurants are swapping their high brow menues for carvery options just to get bums in seats.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122577389#Comment_122577389

Well, NOT 20 euro for a burger. How about that?

Or not 21 euro for fish and chips in a place that closed down recently.

And I'm being very clear here. I'm not "suggesting" anything. I'm saying very clearly that there's no value for money eating out these days. Everything has become ridiculously expensive.

You really, really, have to go out of your way to find a place that's reasonable. But then you have to question whether it's worth the bother.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122578908#Comment_122578908

I'de pay 20e for good food. I'de pay 20e for a really good burger as quick as I would food that is perceived to be fancy and therefore more worthy of a 20e price tag.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122578954#Comment_122578954

Well, all I can say there is off ya go. I won't pay that for a burger. It's a burger. And I won't hand over anything like 21 euro for a plate of fish and chips either. Stuff like that I can do at home for much, much, cheaper. If I was in an Indian or some place that does food that I cannot cook myself, it might be a different story. But even then, price is still a factor. There's a place near us that's now asking just under 20 for a pizza. It used to be around 12 a few years ago. Sod that. And I know for a fact that footfall has decreased in there.

Everything's gone up to absurd levels, including the interest rate on my mortgage. What hasn't gone up, though, has been my wages. So, now I really do question what I am getting for the money I'm being asked to hand over and whether it's worth paying it. And a lot of the times, these days, the answer is no.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579011#Comment_122579011

I bet there are places do burgers way better than you though. And to buy all the ingredients you need to make a really good burger wont be cheap either.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579025#Comment_122579025

Perhaps Breezy, but not 20 euros worth better. It's a burger at the end of the day. It's nothing special and I won't pay it. It's that simple. An awful lot of people feel the same way too, which is why there's some many places shutting their doors. It's just too expensive for what's on offer.

silliussoddius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122574770#Comment_122574770

As the saying goes; if you want to make a small fortune in the restaurant business, start with a large fortune.

Deub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122577580#Comment_122577580

The problem is some customers seem to look at the food on their plate, think about what price they could buy that food for themselves and then (foolishy) decide that they're being ripped off.

I think it is a small minority that think like that. These kind of people would even rarely go to restaurants.

Personally, before the crazy inflation, I had no problem buying a plain burger with chips for the convenience of it more than anything else. Now, I look at the value I am getting out of the food I buy. For example, I don’t take something I can cook at home easily. Instead, I take meals that are long to prepare or have ingredients that I don’t have at home (or not worth buying for just one dish).

For me restaurants is a leisure activity, not a necessity. If my disposable decreases, it is the leisure budget that takes the hit first. They can tell me their cost increased and 15€ for a plain burger is now the correct price (which I understand) I simply won’t buy it.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579045#Comment_122579045

I can understand your point of view about your wages not going up and not being able to afford to eat out.

As regards the e20 burger though I think you are one of those people Tony that just looks at the cost of the food on their plate and nothing else.

Next time you make your burger at home think about the cost of your time to prepare, cook, serve and clean up - what would you pay yourself for that. How much electricity and water did you use? Add these costs to your food costs and consider cost for rent insurance etc and suddenly you can see how that burger costs 20euro.

How much profit do you think the restaurant made on you sitting there eating your burger? I would say by the time all overheads are included they made bugger all. High rent, insurance, utilities etc is why that burger costs 2 euro.

I remember when I was a child we only ate out a few times a year - it was a luxury and there wasn't many restaurants around at the time. I suspect we are going to see this again - restaurants will close and those that survive will cater for those few times a year that we go out. Messing with vat rates isn't going to change anything. If the government want to do something to help the industry they should look how to reduce at the costs of utilities, rates, insurance, rent etc - but they won't do that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122577580#Comment_122577580

Do your restaurant and coffee shop clients understand that VAT isn't part of their income, and they are simply collecting it on behalf of Revenue?

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579011#Comment_122579011

you mention your wages, do you not realise that without charging a certain amount for food (a price that exceeds the base cost of ingredients needed and begins to include taking up a table and having staff cook and serve you) would mean my wages go down? I have bills at home too.

Also beef and fish are fcuking fierce money.

nachouser

Just as an example, this is a fairly busy Sunday lunch menu in fancy Rathgar. 35 quid for 3 courses. That's very reasonable to me. I've been there about 5 times this year, birthdays, Mothers day, Fathers day etc. So there is definitely value to be had if you find the right places. (The site shows as not secure, maybe they are saving money on that!)

http://www.bijourathgar.ie/our-menu/#tab-0d6cae8d4310a08a0ed

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579119#Comment_122579119

They dont fully understand it being honest despite my best efforts to explain it to them. They wont change their prices to reflect a reduction in VAT. Most wrongly think a reduction in VAT is to benefit them rather than the customer.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579102#Comment_122579102

As regards the e20 burger though I think you are one of those people Tony that just looks at the cost of the food on their plate and nothing else.

Think that if you wish. I don't care.

I'm still not handing over 20 euro for something like a burger or a plate of fish and chips. It's not worth it.

Go ahead and try to make that my fault in some way. 😉

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579120#Comment_122579120

If your wages go down, that's not my fault either.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579208#Comment_122579208

😂 Im not blaming you for anything. Im just trying to get you to understand why your burger costs €20!

You have every right not to buy it or eat out at todays prices if it doesnt suit you but it doesnt mean the restaurant was ripping you off Tony by charging you €20.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579206#Comment_122579206

Appreciate the honesty. This hits the nail on the head for me regarding the VAT rate argument. I don't expect them to know that VAT is always a liability on the balance sheet, and never hits their P&L, but surely these busienss owners should have some basic knowledge of business finance and tax.

Are the margins really that wafer thin, that the 4.5% difference in the VAT rates is putting them out of business, or is VAT just an excuse / flavour of the month?

Genuinely curious to learn from someone with proper knowledge of the finances in this industry.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579232#Comment_122579232

I dont believe changing the VAT rate will help the industry at all. The government could reduce VAT to 0% but restaurant prices wont change for the customer which is the problem. The high costs of running a restaurant is all the owners/managers see. They wont take the time to do the calculations on VAT rate changes and hope the difference goes some of the way to covering their increased costs. They cant see that lowering prices for the customer could mean more footfall through the doors which results in higher turnover and hopefully profit follows that.

I think the government should be focused on reducing costs - gas and electricity ( I think some intervention is needed here), insurance costs, rent, rates etc. I think if these costs were reduced restaurants may be open to reducing their prices for the customers. If owners see these bills come down and they can see real savings it could make a difference for the customer.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579258#Comment_122579258

Couldn't agree more Deeec, well said.

Too many businesses who pocketed the original VAT rate reduction, then increased prices when the rate was restored, and would now pocked another reduction- leads to inflation and stupidly high prices, that many of the public won't pay. And they wonder why they're struggling to attract customers.

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122562454#Comment_122562454

This is one of the best weakest arguments I ever heard for anything in my life.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579290#Comment_122579290

Why - give me your wisdom. Are you another person who only sees the cost of the food on their plate when they go out and ignores the restaurants other overheads?

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579300#Comment_122579300

I appreciate a nice meal out in good company as much as everyone else. I even appreciate the odd one out by myself but not often enough.

I just thought the post very funny.

I often discuss food quality and prices with people who make their living from it, a big percentage of my friends in my phone contacts depend on restaurants being busy for their livelihood. We have a lot of interesting conversations and they are all passionate about the customer getting quality for money, from the pot washers to the owners the customer is number 1.

If we were altogether and read your post at the same time on the news there would have been eruptions of laughter from under the facepalms.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579362#Comment_122579362

The purpose of my post was to make people think that the price of their meal in a restaurant has to cover alot more than the cost of the food on their plate. Some people dont seem to realise that and love to comment on how they or their wife can make the same dinner at home for €5. Luckily for them these kind of guys and gals dont have to pay their spouse to cook their dinner - if they did it may be a wake up call😂

Rows Grower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579390#Comment_122579390

Keep digging bro, I'll leave you at it.

castletownman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579079#Comment_122579079

Some people need to realise that. Like the Oasis ticket fiasco, or the price of hotel rooms for a staycation, a meal in a restaurant is a leisure pursuit, and not some god-given right. Was probably a two-time a year thing growing up aside from special occasions (the excitement), now it's all about 'child-friendliness'.

Having said that, my go-to local eatery has definitely remained reasonable with their pricing. Extensive menu of every sort of cuisine, massive portions (would literally be stuffed for the day if you go in for a mid-afternoon lunch), and no mains really over €20 apart from the big ticket usuals like steak. Needless to say, does a roaring trade.

Raichų

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122579225#Comment_122579225

it’s also not mine yours haven’t gone up.

Point being that we all could argue we’re not getting paid enough and the price of everything has gone up— and it’s true but that’s the same for all businesses their costs have gone up too.

Look I don’t actually care if you don’t want to and won’t pay €20 for your burger but what’s frustrating me about your post is that you make the claim it’s all very basic for the price your getting charged.

”I could do it myself at home”, I mean yeah you could but that’s not really the point of going out. if I’m going to eat out it’s usually because either I can’t be bothered to cook or I’m going to spend the time with my family and enjoy a nice dinner together but without having to do any of the work.

Like I’m sorry but if you go to a gastro pub and walk out pissed off you didn’t get enough gels or foams on your plate I don’t know what to tell you? It just sounds like you’re eating at classic burger joints expecting some sort of Michelin Star rated burger.

What do you actually want for €20 to make the experience a reasonable price and good value for you? Granted I appreciate perhaps it can’t be at that price point so tell me then instead what you expect in terms of “good value” and what a fair price to pay is.

Keeping in mind the price incorporates; staff wages (of which you have server, chef & KP to consider at least), occupying a table, getting your food cooked for you and delivered to your table. Table cleared afterwards. Of course all standard and basic expectations of a sit down dining experience in a restaurant.

Maybe it’s just me but €20 doesn’t sound bad at all before I even consider the quality of the burger itself and the base cost of ingredients. I don’t know perhaps because I’m a chef I just have a different perspective on this.

Would I pay €20 for a Big Mac? Not a fooking hope. But for a proper burger served to my table in a restaurant? I would definitely yes.