Beginner looking at starting with shotgun

Aodhan5000 · 28-04-2024 08:17PM #1

Hi all,

Complete novice with no experience myself looking at getting into some shooting. Had it in my head to get a shotgun for shooting crows around lambing season (so a bit late for this year unfortunately) and would possibly be interested in taking up clay pigeons.

I'd imagine I'd first need to do a safety course to have that box ticked and then get further training at a club? I'm located around the Kerry/Limerick border area if that's any help. Knocknagoshal would be handy enough for me to get to.

I've little to no idea where to start with what shotgun/cartridges to buy and where at a reasonable price. From what I gathered, 12 gauge and ballpark 32gr is the way to go but I'm open to correction and have no idea what's best between pump, SA, over under etc and gas or inertia. I'd like to keep it on the cheaper end of things, anything above €1000 is definitely off the table and ideally something ballpark €500.

And just broadly any beginner advice would be much appreciated. I've tried to do a good skelp of reading but I won't take any offence to being treated like I know nothing. Cheers

TheEngineer1 · 29-04-2024 12:11AM

You more or less have it figured out already it seems - get a safety course done first. A lot of gun shops run them or you can sign up to do one on the NARGC website.

Then find a gun. Go into a gun shop and play around with what they have. Get the names of a few different brands and models but don't part with any money till you've had a chance to do some research. €500 will get you a second hand Baikal (Russian make, highly reliable but definitely on the budget end of things) but once you start getting to the €700/ €800 mark you'll be looking at a decent second hand model from a European manufacturer.

In automatics look at the likes of Franchi and Benelli. For double barrels in that price range you won't go wrong with a Silma. If you can really stretch the budget take a look at second hand Brownings and Berettas. None is any better or worse than the other. Choose what fits you - what you can mount to your eye most naturally without having to crane your neck too much to look down the rib. My only advice would be that a second hand quality gun is better than a new cheap model. That being said, you can get a brand new Turkish shotgun for less than €1000. They used have a bad reputation for breaking easily but in recent years they seem to be getting their quality control in order.

Automatics have the benefit of 3 shots which is useful for flocks of crows or pigeons. Double barrels have the benefit of not throwing empty casings everywhere when you pull the trigger and you can put two different cartridges in each barrel (such as a heavy fox cartridge and a lighter cartridge for a crow) and switch between them on demand. Honestly, none has any real advantage over the other. What is comfortable is more important.

My only advice would be get something that is marked to shoot steel ammunition (most modern guns are but anything more than 10/15 years old might not be). The NPWS have made steel shot compulsory for shooting near water so make sure the gun is "steel proof". Steel is harder than lead so generates higher pressure in the barrels than usual lead shot so the gun must be manufactured accordingly. Any gun that is steel proof can shoot lead ammunition too as normal.

Once you've picked out your gun ,pay for it and the dealer will give you a receipt and serial number. Download the FCA1 form from the Garda website and and fill in the details. It sounds like you'll be using it for vermin shooting on your own land so tick the vermin shooting box on your application as the reason why you want the gun.

You'll need to give info on security arrangements too. I'd recommend getting a gun safe but for a single shotgun a trigger lock is sufficient.

lmk123 · 29-04-2024 09:21AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058349321/beginner-looking-at-starting-with-shotgun

they have loads of guns in Knocknagoshel, Paudie white in Broadford has plenty too. He had a practically new Huglu for €450 a while back he might still have it, they’ll both do the safety course for free I’d say if you’re buying a gun from them. If you’re in limerick it’ll probably be Abbeyfeale you’ll be getting the license from, takes about 3 months there. As for cartridges, just buy a few different boxes and you’ll figure out quickly which ones suit best.

Rosahane · 29-04-2024 08:56PM

Firstly you need to decide what is the primary purpose of the shotgun. If you want to primarily do clays a single barrel S/A or pump is probably out as many clubs don't allow them and anyway you are at a slight disadvantage without a choice of chokes in two barrels.

If you only, or mainly want it for vermin control a S/A only offers a slight advantage with the possibility of an extra shot while its main advantage is ease of reloading in a hide.

A double barrel U/O is probably the best multipurpose and lots of good secondhand multi choke guns available in your price range.

Be aware that there are laws around, and differences in the legality of shooting vermin such as grey crows and magpies compared to rooks and pigeons. Your safety/competency course should explain this and the use of different cartridge shot size and load for different putposes.

Aodhan5000 · 08-05-2024 11:05PM

So went to knocknagoshal today to shoot a box of shells. Wouldn't call it a life-changing experience but was definitely a bit of craic and could see myself potentially going out there the odd weekend with a mate to shoot a few clays so I suppose that narrows me down to some class of a double barrel.

After shooting I was looking and asking about their guns. They didn't seem to have a deadly amount of double barrels in the sub €1000 range and were pushing me in the direction of a 28" Huglu for €785 which I wasn't especially fond of. I had it in my head I'd be looking for a 30" gun and wouldn't know much about the Huglu brand so I'm not 100% sure where go from here. Is it worth shopping around a bit first maybe or holding tough to see if they get any new stock? Any advice appreciated, thanks

Shellfishfcuker · 08-05-2024 11:15PM

Sounds like an U/O will fit all your requirements. Make sure to buy a single trigger gun. Up to yourself whether an ejector would suit your circumstances.

lmk123 · 08-05-2024 11:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122114237#Comment_122114237

I’ve a Huglu nearly 3 years, between clays and hunting / shooting around the farm I’ve a lot done with it, no bother at all with it, very happy with it, non ejector which I’d prefer anyway, you’ll get one cheaper than you’ve said above though, see my previous post

TheEngineer1 · 09-05-2024 10:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122114237#Comment_122114237

If you're not fond of it, don't buy it. No point in buying something you're not happy with.

I'm sure the Huglu is a perfectly serviceable gun but get something that fits you properly and more importantly that you enjoy using!

Aodhan5000 · 17-05-2024 07:14PM

Anybody have any info on Paudie White in Broadford? Opening times or number? I don't even know where the gaff is but wanted to give a glance to see if he'd anything that might suit myself? Working during the week unfortunately so I'd only be able to swing by at weekends or late evenings in the week

lmk123 · 17-05-2024 07:25PM

ya he opens around 7:30-9:15 most evenings, I can send you the number if u want

Aodhan5000 · 17-05-2024 07:56PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122150835#Comment_122150835

Cheers. That'd be lovely if you could, and just ballpark where in Broadford he is. Thanks again

Cass · 19-05-2024 10:21AM

One piece of advice I'll throw in, I don't think it's been covered yet.

Make sure you try each gun your interested in for fit.

Too many lads will pick a gun that looks nice, has the brand name, or because they were told this is the one to get. It's rubbish. Pick what suits you.

When you shoulder a shotgun it should be comfortable, fit snuggly in your arms and shoulder and most importantly you should have almost perfect target picture along the shotgun rib without much if anything adjustment.

Now some of this will depend on your mounting of the gun. If your technique is utterly wrong then you will need to learn to adjust it slightly but it shouldn't be so different from your natural body position as to be a chore each time you bring it to your shoulder.

If the gun doesn't fit it'll feel wrong, and you'll find you'll be missing more than can be attributed to beginner error.

A trick.

Pick up a gun you like. Make sure it is empty/clear and keep your finger off the trigger at all times. Either have a mirror or someone at the end that can help. Close your eyes and shoulder the gun. Now open your eyes.

You should be almost perfectly along the rib of the shotgun. If you're not, by a miniscule amount then this gun fits you well enough. If you find you're along the right or left of the rib, by a lot, then see what it takes to be along it and if it's excessive then the gun doesn't fit.

Whenever I shoulder anything other than Beretta or Bettinsoli I find I'm always along the inside/left of the rib and with the likes of Browning I'm almost level with the top of the barrel and under the rib.

If I were to shoot with a gun that fits me like this I'll be high and possibly ahead of the target each time.

The last thing is testing. When I shoot Beretta I must be along the rib and only see the sight at the end of the barrel. If I do this I'll hit each time or at least be on target.

When I use my Bettinsoli I must be along the rib but must see a small amount of the rib (almost looking up along it) and almost block the target with the barrels to be spot on otherwise I'm under the target.

These are little eccentricities of my natural body position coupled with the way each different manufacturer profiles their guns.

It's why I always recommend shouldering every gun you're looking at and trying have someone with more experience help you out. The guy in the shop will help but they have a goal to sell a gun whereas a friend or unbiased person will tell you what you need to know over what they want to sell you.

Hope this is somewhat helpful.

Aodhan5000 · 22-05-2024 08:59AM

Went back to broadford there yesterday. Shouldered a share of guns and found Beretta and browning fitting me best. A few other names I didn't recognise (maybe Turkish?) fitted alright but just didn't feel as comfy and natural as the two above. Some others then that just felt wrong. Too long and too short depending.

Beretta was a 686 I think, tiny bit of rust (we're talking 5mmx5mm max) on the barrel and the inside of the barrel was fairly dirty so not sure how well kept it was. I wasn't that concerned though. Fell open very easily so well used I'd say. He was looking for 900 for it. I don't mind the price of it but just don't genuinely don't know if it's a good buy from the perspective of how worn it is.

Browning 525 was in better nick, nice and clean, little bit tighter to open only so a few less put through? 1200 for her so similar enough to one they have back in Knocknagoshal. Both me and my mate I brought (he's a shooter) preferred the browning for what it is but thought 1200 was stepping it up a lot price wise.

Not officially steel shot proofed but he said it'd be grand as long as the loads weren't too heavy and she wasn't that choked.

I think it might be worth going to a few more places just to feel a few more guns and see a few more options but not sure what else it near me? I know Patrick O'Mahony was back in Tralee but he got shot and I don't know if the son carried it on? There seems to be a gaff in Killarney as well I might give a bell and just ask if they've anything. Anywhere else Kerry/Limerick/North Cork even?

lmk123 · 22-05-2024 09:12AM

sullivans in Rathkeale, same yard / shed / people as the steel works, open 9-5 I’d say

TheEngineer1 · 22-05-2024 11:11AM

If you liked the 525 but the price was too steep you could always go the import route from the UK. You might find the exact same model for 1/2 or 2/3 the price compared to Ireland.

If you take a look on guntrader UK and find what you're looking for, you can pay for it and get it shipped to an RFD in Northern Ireland that does import/export (they might charge €50 for this). You then apply for your firearm cert as normal with the guards and also apply to the dept of justice for an import license (this is free). Once you have both, the dealer up north gets an export license and will post the gun to you.

Shouldn't take any longer than normal as the import export licenses are very quick so by the time the Gardai issue your firearm cert all the other paperwork should be good to go.

Also I'd be very cautious of the dealer saying "be grand" when it comes to steel shot!

J.R. · 22-05-2024 08:36PM

If you intend to keep the gun for a while I would only buy one suitable for superior steel shot…to cover all aspects of shooting,

Lots of guns being traded-in that are not suitable for that shot….may be worthless in time.

https://www.gmk.co.uk/gmk-advice-on-steel-shot/news/85

3ric_is_3ric · 23-05-2024 04:16PM

”it’d be grand for steel shot” sounds like something they’d put on a tombstone

Aodhan5000 · 28-05-2024 11:25PM

I probably have ye driven mad at this stage so apologies in advance for making this such a long thread! Looking back, the budget has ballooned quite a bit since I started!

Took a spin back to Mike Duggan in Kilarney there couple days back. He had a Browning 425 (s/h but very good-excellent), Betinsoli Diamond Deluxe (new) and a Beretta 687 (mint), all sporters with 30" barrels, cased with chokes. Didn't like the feel of the Beretta in my shoulder, might've been the size of the pad on the butt as it was quite large but was also out of budget (1800) so just wrote it off immediately. The Bettinsoli felt decent in the hand and looked gorgeous, but coming in at 1580, so quite steep for my liking. I'm not sure if the Browning felt "better" in terms of fit, but it felt more solid in my arms if that makes any sense. Bit more robust and meaty feeling, in a good way. Cheapest of the lot at 1390.

I'm going to Knock there tomorrow in the evening to put a few rounds through a browning 525 sporter (€1250) that I shouldered the last day so that should hopefully finally allow me to finally pick my preference. I think however, I'm leaning towards the 425 out of all of them but is it a touch expensive (haggle away?, any price I should aim for/tactics?) and is it better to go for a more recent release like the 525 for any reason like spare parts, etc or will the 425 be just as good?

Would it be much of an issue that the 425 is limited to a 3" chamber? I see you can get 50gr 0s with a 3" and more like 42gr 0s with a 2 3/4". Not too worried about shooting that heavy anytime soon but obviously the versatile the gun would be, the better in the long run.

Slightly off topic and more vain/picky, is it possible to replate the gold triggers on most shotguns guns? I did notice the triggers on the Bettinsoli and Beretta were absolutely gleaming while the Browning's trigger looked a little more tired and I'm curious as to whether one could revive that gleam with a replate? Not a dealbreaker but would be a nice to have.

Thanks again everyone!

Croohur1 · 29-05-2024 04:11PM

Personally, having owned both the Browning and the Bettinsoli, IF the Browning fits better - get the Browning. The Bettinsoli is nice, its fine, but the Browning is built to last. Loads of spares if anything breaks. And just better built without a doubt. The Bettinsoli shoots absolutely fine, but doesnt have the satisfying clunk to close like a Browning does. I also found the ejectors on the Bettinsoli a bit bleh. Berettas are also excellent, but there is a reason why people tend to be Browning or Beretta people, they shoulder differently and most people tend to have a preference they stick with.

And yes, its easy enough to replate gold triggers.

See how you find the 525, it is very very similar to the 425. I wouldnt be worrying too much about 3"+ chamber length, tbh magnum loads are pretty specialised and not something the vast majority of shooters would be thinking about.

And at the end of the day, if you take to shooting, this wont be your last shotgun. A 425 or 525 is a great place to start.

Ali Malik · 26-06-2024 03:37AM

Hi

Well, in the post you said you have a set budget in mind do a little search on the Internet and see what's for sale at your nearest dealer maybe sort the items from prices low to high and see what everyone has for the price range shortlist a couple of dealers and call them before you go upto them to ask about the condition of the gun's action, barrels and stock etc and a lot of time they will tell you upfront if there's anything wrong with it. This will aave you time and effort, often they send more pics on request as well.

2. I can whole heartedly suggest buying a bettinsoli second hand with a nice tight action and I don't see why it wouldn't last you a good few years if you keep it nice and clean.
Try Peter Kelly in Lahardane for second hand and brand new or bawnboy firearms they have Webley and scott 1000 sporter ( this particular model unlike other webley's which are made in Turkey now this model is actually made in Italy by bettinsoli) and it's just 1050 brand new I guess this is a fair price, in my opinion anything decent in o/u category will come in at a price tag of 650 or above second hand.

Aodhan5000 · 29-08-2024 01:21PM

So folks, it's been a while since my first post here and said I'd give an update and just had a question about applying for the licence.

Ended up going with a Browning Ultra S 30" back in Knocknagoshal. I seem to be a bit awkward for gun fit where I end up too low on most combs of Bettinsolis and others. Tried an adjustable 525 which could be adjusted to my fit but didn't feel entirely right and I didn't like the balance of it (I'm used to shooting a mates sabatti game gun so maybe that played into it).

Tried a medallist then which felt nice enough in fairness but I was just a little concerned with the quality and reliability of a gun like that. Spotted the Ultra S while I was back there, put a few rounrs through it and really liked it. Best fitting gun I tried and I'm fond of the look of it as well. Advice not to buy right away couldn't have been truer!

Now they printed off my licence application on the spot for me and filled out a share of it but, he said not to put down clay shooting as one of the uses as they'll ask for proof of membership of a clay range.

But my understanding is then my ammo allowance on my license will be greatly reduced if I only have vermin control down. Like my mate didn't put down clay shooting in his and he's an ammo limit of 220. Does that end up being a big inconvenience in the long run? Is it worth putting down shooting clays a a use and trying to get a handy membership for 6 months even so I've that box ticked? We'd usually shoot clays on my own land so no deadly need for a membership other than to keep the guards happy and allow me a bigger ammo allowance .

Cheers

lmk123 · 29-08-2024 01:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558290#Comment_122558290

it could possibly be an inconvenience if buying cartridges online that’s all I’ll say about that part of it. My reason for having the shotgun is vermin control and have an allowance of 100 on the license, it’s an absolute joke. I also shoot clays on my own land and would go through 100 in no time at all.

otmmyboy2 · 29-08-2024 01:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122558290#Comment_122558290

It heavily depends on your district.
A lot will allow you to put down clay shooting, note that you can be a pay per round guy rather than a member of a clay ground, so they cannot force you to be a member of a clay ground in order to put down that you shoot clays.

I would recommend calling up your firearms officer(in your local station they should give out the FO's contact details), give them a buzz and explain that you are applying for a shotgun for both pest control, hunting and clay shooting as a pay as you go punter rather than a member, and that you would like a cartridge allocation to support all of those reasons. By the commissioner's guidelines, page 28 here -

https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/online-services/firearms-licensing/commissioner-s-guidelines-2018.pdf

The following ratio of ammunition to purpose may be considered average:

• Farmer/Farming (one shotgun for vermin/pest control) - Up to 200 rounds.

• Deer Stalker rifle - Up to 500 rounds.

• Shotgun for clay pigeon, pheasant/pigeon/woodcock - Up to 750 rounds.

• Target Shooter (member of authorised club) - Up to 1,000 rounds.

Emphasis mine, so, on average, up to 750 rounds would be reasonable to ask for, but they may well try to bargain you down to 500, or 250 depending on the FO.

Often if you explain your reasons to the FO informally before putting in your application they will informally tell you that usually the district gives out X for Y reasons, or what have you. Nothing stopping you questioning that or applying for more, and with sufficient reasons getting more either, but have a chat to the FO and ask.
250 rounds is not unusual for an allocation for a first time licence, but there is also nothing stopping you from, when you are talking to your FO, asking whether if an allocation is insufficient during the course of the licence could you request that it be increased, ie you initially think you will shoot clays a few times a year, but then start shooting weekly.
That is a significant increase of cartridges used and could warrant an increase in your ammo amount within the lifetime of your licence.
Some districts will allow this, others will not until renewal time, but it is best to ask so you know what you are up against.

On a side note, I recommend that folks always apply for the absolute max you think you will need/use.
A lot of lads will ask for 250 and get 100.
I know one guy who asked for 100 for his first rifle and they gave him 40 🤣
Another was told that he couldn't have 1000 rounds for his 22 rifle, because that was too much, but for a subsequent 22 rifle they granted him 1000 without any fuss or quibble.

It really does run the gamut.

Cass · 29-08-2024 06:39PM

@Aodhan5000 "he said not to put down clay shooting as one of the uses as they'll ask for proof of membership of a clay range"

Clay pigeon shooting is not classified as target shooting so no membership to a range or club is required. In essence, you could rock into a field with a trap and shoot away (assuming you had permission to use the field and all that).

Your reason therefore, other than vermin, is clay pigeon shooting. If asked about being a member of a clay range simply say (on your separate piece of paper under section 4.2 - reason for this firearm) clay pigeon shooting is not classed as target shooting and as you partake in clay pigeon shooting at various locations and ranges you need not have nor are a member of any range.

You may, and possibly will, get push back on this but you are on solid ground with regard to your justification and reason.

This will then have the knock on effect of allowing you to apply for a higher allowance. I wouldn't go with less than 500 but stick in 750 to be sure.

Explain you buy cartridges per slab, 250 per slab, and you have one for clays and another for game. The "spare" 250 allows you to have loose boxes of either and to accommodate you keeping your spent cartridges until you can legally and safely dispose of them as spent shells are classed as live ones under the law.

Aodhan5000 · 31-08-2024 12:33AM

Rang garda station in Abbeyfeale and got FO name and number. Turns out I know him so should hopefully make the whole process a little smoother but he's off until Sunday so will leave the questions till then. Went trying to sort a safe in the meantime but Irish Shooting Sports are all out of their normal 4 gun deep safe which costs €225 normally and they don't have a date for when they'll be in. Rang up Mike Duggan in Kilarney, has a 3 gun cogswell for €280 and an Infac SD7 for €420.

Was kind of hoping for something closer to the 200 mark like Irish Shooting Sports because €280 seems mad for a safe like that relative to the Infac, or maybe thats the point, cheeky upsell? Broadford didn't have anything different. Just wondering am I as well to bite the bullet on the Infac (even though I feel sore enough about taking 400 quid out the wallet) and "futureproof" myself a bit for any new additions while also getting a better quality safe.

Cheers

lmk123 · 31-08-2024 01:05AM

no need to buy one straight away, it’ll take 3 months to get the license in Abbeyfeale, keep an eye on DoneDeal and Adverts, I got one for €40 that fits a shotgun and scoped rifle,

alex90 · 31-08-2024 12:46PM

Safe for sale on here for 80 quid.

Aodhan5000 · 31-08-2024 12:50PM

That's North Dublin, I'm Limerick/Kerry so bit far unfortunately

otmmyboy2 · 31-08-2024 03:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122566597#Comment_122566597

Stick up a wanted advert, never know what someone nearby might be getting rid of.

Gorteen · 06-09-2024 05:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122564804#Comment_122564804

Only requirement for a single shotgun is a trigger lock!

My understanding is that Gardai can suggest but cannot insist on you having a gun safe for one shotgun!

tonysopprano · 06-09-2024 05:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122589634#Comment_122589634

Totally wrong.

The https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2009/si/307/made/en/print sets the minimum standards and the High Court has previously ruled that an Issuing Officer has the authority to set additional conditions, within reason.

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Beginner looking at starting with shotgun

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