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Clontarf to City Centre Cycle & Bus Priority Project discussion (renamed)

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Comments

  • #3302
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    BBTW The Dutch don't really prioritise speed of cycling, they prioritise safety of cycling.

    Dutch cycling is famously casual and leisurely. Up right, Dutch style "granny bikes", at fairly leisurely speeds is the norm in the Netherlands, rather then the more sporty style high speed cycling.

    Their bike infrastructure is more oriented at that and safety. It is designed to get regular people out and cycling, young kids, families, school students, cargo bikes, commuters, etc.

    Lads in lycra and helmets and a racing bike would get funny looks on city center cycle path in the Netherlands!

    You can even see this is the design of the Dutch Junction, which isn't necessarily the fastest type of junction, but it is relatively safe.

    Of course nice wide cycle paths can be ridden fast too, like the Howth Road one often is and much faster then on a road, but speed isn't the primary focus of the Dutch design.

    Again, nothing stopping you using the road if that is what you prefer and are comfortable with.



  • #3303
    Tenzor07
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,440 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    Actually was referring to the design of new cycling infrastructure we see popping up all around the city and not the Sutton to Clontarf cycle lane specifically



  • #3304
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,427 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122543699#Comment_122543699

    The video you posted seems to be some lad making a road junction in a computer game, it isn't in any way relevant. I assume you just looked for something with Dutch junctions but than design is based on a four arm junction and the one in question here is five arm. Throwing out a generic comment about how a Dutch junction would solve everything may make you seem knowledgeable down the pub but that doesn't work here.

    That style of junction in this location would require waiting for signals to cross the road three times, with two of those crossings requiring two-stage crossings, first to an island and then completing. It would require first crossing the perpendicular road to the left, then crossing Snugborough on the far side of the junction (i.e. on the bridge), then having to cross the N3 off slip.

    The Dutch design would require going round the outside of the junction and crossing each road separately, a distance of c.130m. What's there new allows cyclists to cut the corner by crossing Snugborough Road on the near side which reduces the crossing distance down to c.50m. You also wait for less green lights in the current setup.

    If your concern is time, then the current setup is better than sending cyclists all the way around some hybrid Dutch junction. As has been said, adjusting the light sequences could really speed things up for cyclists and pedestrians. In the above video, a lot of time is lost on islands, directly crossing each road in one go would save a lot of time for the cyclist.



  • #3305
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122544383#Comment_122544383

    Yeah, I lost track of the conversation, I thought we were still talking about the new cycle track on East Wall.

    BTW I double checked the plans for East Wall, the Toucan crossing between Aldi and Lidl is a direct crossing, with no island, as long as the pedestrian lights are reactive, that is a fine crossing.

    Also according to the plans there is also a with traffic crossing cycle crossing right next to it to Church Road, if you prefer that, so really you have both options, for both type of cyclists.

    Don't get me wrong, I agree that we are still learning how to build cycle lanes and there are still plenty of examples of new bad cycle lane design or inadequate design, I've complained myself lots about the Griffith Avenue one or the lack of width on various lanes.

    BBTW The new junction in Blanch, is that part of a BusConnects route, have you looked at the plans for that junctions under BusConnects. Even new junctions will be changing under that plan.



  • #3306
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yeah, looks like that junction will get more work under BusConnects. Looks like a pretty mad and complex junction.

    Under BusConnects some of the junction directions will be pretty handy, however the specific direction shown in the video will still be poor, requiring 4 Toucan crossings! Part of the problem looks like there is no cycle lane on that side of Main street, so that direction isn't considered!

    BTW A Dutch Junction would even be worse at this location, you'd have far more arms to cross.



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  • #3307
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122538294#Comment_122538294

    FYI I checked the plans and there are 7 Sheffield stands to go in at this area, spread across this area next to the Cycle lane. And another 4 to go in across the road at Edges corner.



  • #3308
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,447 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122549976#Comment_122549976

    Fantastic. Many Gaffneys patrons seem to come by bike. Thanks..



  • #3309
    Citizen Six
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭Citizen Six


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122549976#Comment_122549976

    When going to Tesco, I’ve been locking my bike to the new tree outside Hillbilly’s. 😂



  • #3310
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    LOL. Unfortunately it doesn’t look like any planned for outside Tesco, but there are already a bunch under the pedestrian bridge relatively close by.



  • #3311
    Citizen Six
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭Citizen Six


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122552789#Comment_122552789

    Defeats the purpose for me. I want to lock my bike closer to the shop than 120m away. Always dodgy lads around there, often looking to rob bikes.



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  • #3312
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,882 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Inbound traffic restrictions to be removed Sunday.

    https://twitter.com/donna_cooney1/status/1828800696386289804
    Post edited by CatInABox on


  • #3313
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122554267#Comment_122554267

    Yeah, not ideal, I guess not enough space on the footpath in front of Tesco. BTW the stands under the bridge are only 60 meters away. I'm surprised they aren't putting some in front of Javaholics or in front of the car dealer, I suppose the ones under the bridge is considered close enough.



  • #3314
    Citizen Six
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭Citizen Six


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122555317#Comment_122555317

    I’ll keep using the tree so.



  • #3315
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,427 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    There really should only be one outbound lane as far as the footbridge, that space could be better used, including a loading bay at Tesco. A second lane could start after the footbridge for the turn off for Malahide Road, basically where the turn off lane in the other direction for Fairview Strand starts.



  • #3316
    Citizen Six
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭Citizen Six


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122556163#Comment_122556163

    you need two outbound lanes or else the buses can’t over take cars parked outside hillbilly’s in the bus lane.



  • #3317
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,427 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122556326#Comment_122556326

    Of course, I'd forgotten even fried chicken gets priority over buses.



  • #3318
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,447 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Inbound back open. It's amazing how busy ir is already even on a Sunday evening. The quiet was nice while it lasted.



  • #3319
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,205 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122571891#Comment_122571891

    Could the busyness be due to Coldplay in Croke Park?



  • #3320
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,384 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    I wish they had made those 'steps' across the cycle lanes a uniform size.

    Some streets they are not so bad to go across and others are like going up and down a stairs.



  • #3321
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,447 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122572056#Comment_122572056

    Well this was during the concert so I doubt it



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  • #3322
    loco_scolo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 765 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122556163#Comment_122556163

    Never understood why they kept this layout in the plans. Outbound goes to 2 lanes at Leinster Avenue, definitely not needed until Edges Corner at least.

    Hopefully at some point they'll put in a central median with trees and plants. It would massively enhance the connection between Fairview Strand and the park itself.



  • #3323
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122544227#Comment_122544227

    I think there are a few misconceptions here. And when I say here, I don't mean just in your post but also in what you're replying to and the general ideas we have of Dutch cycling.

    People on upright bikes still travel at 20-25km+ and more so with the growth of electric bicycles. You'll see people causally chatting while cycling side by side, dressed for dinner and going above 20km/h. The key thing is: On a modern priority cycle route.

    Dutch cycle paths have a higher design speed than most of ours, but a key thing about Dutch cycling design is not the speed per se but the flow. Cycling is treated like a form of traffic in engineering terms.

    Of course, there's always a balance to be had, and this should apply on primary cycle routes, not on narrow city centre streets mixing with people on foot, and it might also not apply, for example, where a less important cycle route has to cross a large road etc.

    At a junction like the one in Blanch, the Dutch would also be very much so looking at the flow of cars. They would likely be looking at a grade-segregated solution or, if not, using their traffic lights, which are far more dynamic than ours.



  • #3324
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122575954#Comment_122575954

    I don't disagree with what your are saying here, more a difference on emphasis.

    Priority number 1 for Dutch design is safety, I'd agree that priority 2 is flow as you say, speed is a distant third. Yes of course with safe design and good flow comes good speed, just that it isn't really the focus.

    While ebikes are becoming more popular in the Netherlands, the vast majority continue to be regular non electric Dutch bikes, that average about 15km/h. It maybe a bit out of date now, but here is an article about speed limits in Amsterdam:

    https://www.holland-cycling.com/blog/260-amsterdam-has-slowest-cyclists

    There is actually a tension happening in Amsterdam between regular bikes and ebikes and the differences in speed and in Amsterdam they are currently looking at putting a 20km/h speed limit on cycle paths and separating out ebikes:

    https://bikecity.amsterdam.nl/en/trial-allowing-fast-cyclists-to-use-the-roadway/

    This is a good example of how the Netherlands is prioritising safety over speed. The whole 30:20:10 thing is a very interesting concept.

    To be honest in Amsterdam in the busy city center, it is almost impossible to go 24km/h with so many slower cyclists in the busy cycle lanes in front of you. Sure in the suburbs you can go faster, but in they city your options are either slow down or use the road.

    Agree completely that the Dutch would better design that Blanch junction, just that it likely wouldn't be the famous Dutch Junction, the complexity would require a different design.

    As an aside, I've had the chance to try out Moby's new Dutch Style upright ebikes and they are fantastic, so much fun!



  • #3325
    loyatemu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,720 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    As an aside, I've had the chance to try out Moby's new Dutch Style upright ebikes and they are fantastic, so much fun!

    they are fine to ride, but an expensive option for getting around. I used a Moby to get into the office one day last week and it cost me €4, the following day I used a Bleeper (non-electric) for the same journey and it cost €1.30. It seems that most of the Moby bikes are now electric; considering Dublin is pretty flat I wonder if they're making a mistake being so much more expensive than their competition.



  • #3326
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,427 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122572383#Comment_122572383

    The retention of two lanes outbound for the full length as before is the big missed opportunity with this scheme for me. That space could be far better used, particularly at the western end of Marino Mart.

    I don't argee with a central median with trees, it would be better to have the road as narrow as possible and have more space and planting on either side. The park side is fine but the other side would definitely benefit from more space and planting.



  • #3327
    loco_scolo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 765 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122576724#Comment_122576724

    I agree with you on the central median, but given the works they've now completed, a central median would be the only solution - they can't go digging the whole thing back up again, or adding a lame extension to one side which would never be done to the same spec.



  • #3328
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122576444#Comment_122576444

    Oh totally. Plus just a few weeks ago that massively reduced the area of Dublin they cover! Reduced by well over 50%, really not much more then Dublin Bikes covers, making their service almost useless IMO.

    Sucks as they had just added a massive number of bikes!

    I don't understand how Dublin City Council allows them to use public bike stands, getting in the way of regular cyclists, while not covering the whole DCC area!

    I was more commenting on the style of bike. I've been trying out the ebikes from the various rental services to just get a feel for ebikes and the different styles of bikes, as I'm considering getting one myself some day.

    Of all I've tried these new Moby ones are great, I quiet like the combination of the upright dutch bikes, combined with the speed and acceleration of the motor. I'm not sure what style of motor it has, but I like the simplicity of just one gear, yet the way it responds quickly and adjusts to your pedalling and can handle the Dublin "hills" fine.

    It has me quiet tempted to invest in an ebike.



  • #3329
    VonLuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,477 ✭✭✭VonLuck


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122576444#Comment_122576444

    Agreed. I signed up to Moby as I was tempted to use the e-bikes for one-way journeys, say for a direct route to a restaurant or pub in the evening instead of a circuitous journey by bus and to avoid getting sweating in "good" clothing. Then I saw the cost of €1 to unlock and then €0.25 a minute thereafter!

    For me that might mean €6+ for a one way journey. I don't think I could ever justify that when a €2 bus or train and short walk would work just as well.

    I wonder how much usage they're getting at that price point.



  • #3330
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,447 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    The Moby electrics are grand once in a while, expensive if you were to use them regularly. Hard to find places to put them though, if i want to cycle to my parents house in artane on one from north strand, i have to go to east wall to get one, then leave it at the gates to st anne's park on sybill hill road and walk all the way to near mcauley park which is ridiculous.



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  • #3331
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122536195#Comment_122536195

    Just make sure you dismount from your bicycle while crossing with the pedestrians.



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