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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭Enduro


    I've no idea what point you're trying to make by pointing out that Lia Thomas was found to have no standing to take a case against WA rules in the CAS.

    I’m not either, since that’s simply not how human rights, civil rights, or anti-discrimination law actually functions. I’m aware of plenty of cases where people have been denied their rights by organisations, including sports organisations, and successfully challenged them in Court.

    I can't see any remote relevance here. We are talking specifically about excluding male sex competitors from the female sex category. I'm not aware of any case which was taken and succeeded in showing that a male sex athlete had their human/civil rights violated or was discriminated against as a result of being deemed ineligible to compete in the female category.

    I'd not be at all surprised if some sports organisation was found to be discriminating against somebody somewhere. That's pretty broad, and pretty irrelevant to this particular issue as well.

    One thing is for sure, and that is the usual excuse of "not enough money to bring a case" can't be used to explain why sex category eligibilty laws have not been found to be illegal. The TRA organisations were very quick to bring (and quick to lose) a high court case against the British government when puberty-blocking drugs were banned for children. They have the money and ability to act if they think they have a valid case.

    The bottom line in the end is that rules excluding male sex athletes from the female category are currently 100% legal and not in violation of human or civil rights. You should be happy about that if, as you claim, that is what you care about.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭Enduro


    You’re obviously aware that the rules aren’t the same for everyone, given both your statements above. How those rules are applied and to whom they apply, is discrimination.

    Utter claptrap. The rules apply to everyone. They might not be relevant to everyone, but they apply to everyone.

    And to say that applying any rule is discrimination is farcical. WTAF. Do you live in the real world at all?

    Making up new rules based upon testosterone levels because it means you can then declare that whether a woman is or isn’t a woman is irrelevant, still has to have a legitimate justification.

    You really don't seem to understand what is going on. Sports organisations are not defining who is or who isn't a woman. Sports organisations, in this context, set out rules which define who is eligible to compete in the female sex category. That is very very different, whether you like it or not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    I'm not aware of any case which was taken and succeeded in showing that a male sex athlete had their human/civil rights violated or was discriminated against as a result of being deemed ineligible to compete in the female category.

    Amazing what a little change in the wording can do. When you put it like that, then there is a case which you’re undoubtedly aware of which meets your criteria:

    https://archive.ph/kO4Jq

    https://archive.ph/jCjkq



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭aero2k


    So, a case getting on for half a century old? The Judge talked about the amount of medical evidence that Richards was female. I wonder if the case was re-run today would the scientific evidence support that finding? There was also the mention of the belief that no advantage pertained from having gone through puberty (I won't call it male lest I trigger you) before transitioning from male to female. Again, singnificant research in the interim would disagree.

    You hate aphorisms, but I know you're fond of a Wikipedia link, or even a paste of a wall of text. I won't post a link or a big paste, but here's a paragraph from Richards' Wikipedia page:

    "Richards has since expressed ambivalence about her legacy, and came to believe her past as a man provided her with advantages over her competitors, saying "Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I'd had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I've reconsidered my opinion."

    Thanks again for helping make the arguement for those of us who believe that people born male have an advantage over those born female when it comes to athletics and many other sports, and who therefore believe that allowing males to compete in female sports is inherently unfair.

    Just btw: all eligibility rules discriminate - that's the whole point of them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    So, a case getting on for half a century old?

    Yes, that’s generally how the law operates - the Courts are responsible for applying enacted laws devised by politicians. The Courts will consider all factors, not just the factors which either the plaintiff or the respondent imagine are relevant.

     (I won't call it male lest I trigger you)

    You can use whatever terms you like aero, I won’t give a shyte, I’ll still understand what you’re referring to. It’s when I’m expected to use terms that I don’t use, is when I’ll give a shyte. No different to anyone else in that regard.

    You hate aphorisms, but I know you're fond of a Wikipedia link, or even a paste of a wall of text.

    I don’t hate aphorisms, I just don’t imagine they offer the valuable insight the user hopes will make them appear a profound thinker is all. It’d be like me pointing out that someone isn’t smart enough to play dumb - self-explanatory really.

    Just like Richard’s opinion now is no different to Caitlyn Jenner’s opinion now - you’re only placing any value in their opinions because they agree with yours, not because you actually care what they think. You’ll find no shortage of people who share your opinions, but until such a point as a case is tested in Court - the law is as it stands. Which is good because it means that even if a case were 50 years old, or five months old, it wouldn’t matter. What’s bad is that the President can issue Executive Orders and flip-flop between terms that one day people have their rights recognised, the next day those rights are revoked - makes competing in sports in Education a bit of a pain in the hole. I’m just glad I don’t live in the US.

    Just btw: all eligibility rules discriminate - that's the whole point of them.

    You’re not telling me anything I don’t know already. Me, earlier:

    You’re aware that the rules aren’t the same for everyone, given both your statements above. How those rules are applied and to whom they apply, is discrimination. Whether that discrimination is lawful, or unlawful, will depend on the laws in the jurisdiction in which they apply.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,117 ✭✭✭plodder


    So, a case getting on for half a century old?

    Yes, that’s generally how the law operates - the Courts are responsible for applying enacted laws devised by politicians. The Courts will consider all factors, not just the factors which either the plaintiff or the respondent imagine are relevant.

    The funny thing about that case is that it absolutely wasn't applying laws enacted by politicians. There was no law (like our Gender Recognition Act) that allowed males to identify as females at that time.

    It was a one-off case in a lower court. Richards who was 43 when he won it, subsequently played in the women's US Open but lost in the first round. That killed off the controversy temporarily.

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    That wasn’t the law I was referring to plodder -

    In a 13‐page decision that could become a landmark, Ascione said the requirement that Dr. Richards pass the test in order to become eligible for the United States Open was “grossly unfair, discriminatory and inequitable, and violative of her rights under the Human Rights Law of this state.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/1977/08/17/archives/renee-richards-ruled-eligible-for-us-open-ruling-makes-renee.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,117 ✭✭✭plodder


    There was no law recognising "sex changes" as they referred to it. The judge simply accepted Richards' assertion that she had changed sex, and was being discriminated against as a woman.

    From the same article you quoted:

    (Judge) Ascione wrote. The unfounded fears and misconceptions of defendants must give way to the overwhelming medical evidence that this person is now female.

    Classic "legal fiction", but not as a result of a particular law "enacted by politicians". The US Tennis Association had a much clearer view of the long term implications than the silly judge.

    Screenshot 2024-08-25 at 07.50.47.png

    They turned out to be right about that. So, they figured this was a one-off and best forgotten about. It might have been better if they did appeal though. I'd say feminists in the 1970's would have had a much clearer opinion on the matter than they do today. Those who were around at the time and still here, certainly do.

    One interesting other quote from the article was how the money men in sport saw an opportunity to make a quick buck pitting Richards against the upcoming female star of the time - one Martina Navratilova.

    "Martina Navratilova is no hater and Renee Richards is awesome" - Chris Evert responds to Twitter user's comments on gender rules in sports

    https://www.sportskeeda.com/tennis/martina-navratilova-hater-renee-richards-awesome-chris-evert-s-responds-twitter-user-s-comments-gender-rules-sports

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭aero2k


    I'm well aware how the law works - our system is similar to the US in that judges can actually make law, in the sense that any judgement they make will be relied on for future judgements. I'm just curious about what sort of medical evidence could prove that a male had become a female, and also what the outcome would be if a similar case was run today.

    "I’m just glad I don’t live in the US".

    Well, at last there's something unambiguous that we can agree with. I lived there twice, for 5 months in '86, and 13 months in '02-'03. I enjoyed both stints - there'so much wonderful about it, great literature, movies, literature, scientific / technological progress, amazing landscapes and many lovely people. I just can't get the wilful ignorance though - there are none so blind as those who will not see. And everything seems to be corrupted by money.

    "Just like Richard’s opinion now is no different to Caitlyn Jenner’s opinion now - you’re only placing any value in their opinions because they agree with yours, not because you actually care what they think."

    Well, again your mind reading has failed you, but I'll help you out as best I can. Your link intrigued me as I had a vague memory of the Richards case. I couldn't recall whether there there were appeals, or how the whole thing turned out, so I had a look at the Wiki page to refresh my memory. I was reminded of the association with Martina Navratilova. I was actually surprised to find the paragraph I quoted. I place value in Richards' opinion as it comes from someone born male who at one point fought hard to be allowed to take part in women's tennis, but who, at a later point, acknowledged the unfairness inherent in that. I respect people who are able to reconsider strongly held opinions when other information comes on their radar - I did it myself on this issue (at one point I was supportive of Caster Semanya being allowed to compete in women's races). Of coure I care what Richards (and indeed Jenner) think: it's pretty fundamental to care about an opinion if you're going to spend any time at all thinking about it, whether or not that thought process leads to agreement.

    "I just don’t imagine they offer the valuable insight the user hopes will make them appear a profound thinker is all"

    I'm not sure if that was a general remark or directed particularly at me but I'm at an age where I'm long past caring what people think of me😀! My concern here is to argue to the best of my ability for fairness in sport in general. I accept that life is unfair in many respects, and that in many instances the best we can do is come up with a system that is least unfair to the widest number of people possible (cf Leaving Cert points system). I think excluding those born male from women's sports is such a system - yes, it means that those males who wish to identify as female, and to have this identity validated by competing against women, will not be able to do so. I just think it's the fairest situation, and that opinion is supported by science, by the opinions of influential current and former female competitors, and at least two transwomen. I despair at the lask of moral courage of the IOC, but they care about optics more than fairness.

    Now, if you care to lay out your opinion clearly and concisely, we can have a proper debate. What is it that you are really looking for, and why?

    Post edited by aero2k on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The thread IS discussing professional athelticism, ie. work.

    I see this trope being waved around these days as a canard for transphobic discrimination and I fail to see its validity. This is a thread about transgenderism in professional sports, which are a workplace, the sports industry, etc. and acting like this isn't a crusade for discrimination in employment is farcical.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    That's amazing.

    Where does one even start???



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Actually, the OP referenced a university swim meet, so amateur sport (notwithstanding the enormous amounts some college sports coaches are paid). And, while the OP did refer to trans people, the discussion quickly broadened out to the general question of whether or not it was fair to allow people born male to compete against people born female. One of my posts includes a link with about 600 instances of females losing out because males have been allowed into their competitions - some of them are from high school sports.

    As we're in Ireland I did a quick google to see if employment law covered professional sport in Ireland but I didn't get a definitive answer(I did find that it covers workers apart from Gardaí and the Defence forces, but I don't know if sportspeople are considered workers under our laws). I don't know the thread by heart, but I'm willing to bet there isn't a single post advocating any sort of discrimination in employment. There are indeed many posts considering professional sportspeople, but I reckon that's because they tend to be high profile and so a good place to start if looking for useful examples.

    *edited to correct typo

    Post edited by aero2k on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    College and University swimming has even more anti-discrimination rules that it follows like Title IX, so you're not really making a meaningful rebuttal with that. The thread has mostly lived on to bemoan Olympic athleticism also, which no one would accuse of being amateur. Not including this post, I found 32 results for the word "Olympic" in the last 5 pages alone, and indeed this thread fell off the radar for some weeks/months until the Olympics came back on last month, and one can only guess which athlete a number of posts took umbrage with recently...

    The GAA touts itself as amateur but that's all I can find at a glance for Ireland particularly. That said however GAA is an employer itself. I also understand Coimisúin na Mean, the Irish media regulator, will be imposing new rules next year* for social media which undoubtedly includes Boards.ie which will introduce enforcement and penalties for failing to meet certain standards when it comes to discriminatory language being thrown around, though I'm yet unclear how that would affect this topic, vs. how it would affect people looking to go out of their way to post eg. hate speech against the LGBTQ+.

    edit: this, which might not cover Boards.ie (yet)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭aero2k


    I've heard it said that England and America are two nations divided by a common language - the same must apply to Ireland. I'll try to make head or tail of your post - it's all over the place, but here goes:

    Title 1X prohibits sex-based discrimination in Education. What's that got to do with Employment Law? (Ironically, Title 1X has been used to facilitate discrimination against females, but that's another discussion).

    Where has anyone bemoaned Olympic athleticism?

    You found 32 posts about the biggest event in world sports, on a sports related thread, during and in the immediate aftermath of said event, and you seem to find that surprising. You probably need to get out more.

    "and one can only guess which athlete a number of posts took umbrage with recently..".

    I presume you're referring to Imane Khalif. If so, have another read: most posters were at pains to point out that they had no problem with Imane, in fact most expressed sympathy at the hateful social media pile-on. There was justified criticism of the IOC for unfair rules.

    So you dragged in GAA and Coimisúin na Mean - at least one of those is a sporting body. They're both employers but we're not talking about employment here (yeah, your rebutal of my rebuttal was a bit weak, wasn't it?).

    "hate speech against the LGBTQ+"

    Can you show me evidence for this in the thread?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Looks like you're just sealioning and pretending not to understand Title IX so we'll leave it there and place you on ignore.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,513 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    Just when you thought you read it all…these mental gymnastics would get a gold.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭aero2k


    I've reported this post for the same reason I reported OEJ - basically acusing me of dishonesty. Like OEJ, it seems that when your arguments are challenged you fall back on projecting your behaviour onto others. In a thread about women's sports, you dragged in workplace discrimination, social media regulation, mentioned title 1X in the context of an educational setting (intervarsity swimming) and then accused me of pretending to misunderstand it when I used it in exactly the same context, but I'm the one sealioning - have I got that right?

    Your retreat from the thread is the most cowardly thing I've seen in nearly 60 years, even more cowardly than the IOC in their eligibility rules. And to think Americans called the French "cheese-eating surrender monkeys"! If you had any proper arguements to make, I presume you'd have stayed and made them.

    I googled Title IX, and I found out that it applies to education and all activities which receive federal funding. I wasn't aware of the bit in bold, but given that it (Title IX) was introduced to add the area of education to existing Civil rights legislation, I think my understanding of it was reasonable. You didn't refer to the "all activities" bit at all.

    Let's, just as a thought experiment, assume sport comes under Irish employment legislation. It then follows that the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work 2005 applies. I won't link it as it's easily found, but among the duties of employers under the act are:

    • To ensure the safety, health and welfare at work of his or her employees
    • To manage and conduct work activities in such a way as to ensure the safety, health and welfare at work of all employees
    • To manage and conduct work activities in such a way as to prevent any improper conduct or behaviour likely to endanger employees

    One essential task in achieving the above is to conduct a detailed written risk assessment of all tasks that are expected to be carried out in the workplace. I wonder how this would turn out if the workplace happened to be, for example, an Olympic boxing ring??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    I don’t think that’s a fair assessment Overheal tbh. I think it’s fair to say aero isn’t pretending. It’s why when they made this statement yesterday, I decided it wasn’t worth pursuing:

    I'm well aware how the law works - our system is similar to the US in that judges can actually make law, in the sense that any judgement they make will be relied on for future judgements. I'm just curious about what sort of medical evidence could prove that a male had become a female, and also what the outcome would be if a similar case was run today.


    In neither jurisdiction, can Judges make law, in any sense. What you’re referring to are the decisions of the Courts that set a precedent.

    As for the medical evidence that was presented to the Court in Richards case, there was evidence both for and against the claims made. Again I’ll leave links below, but no prizes for guessing who was the world’s foremost leading authority on the subject of sexual identity, and he deployed the argument from authority then too -

    Dr. Money's professional conclusion, based on 26 years of professional experience as a psychoendocrinologist, is that a person such as Dr. Renee Richards should be classified as female and for anyone in the medical or legal field to find otherwise is completely unjustified. Dr. Money also believes that Dr. Richards will have no unfair advantage when competing against other women. He says that her muscle development, weight, height and physique fit within the female norm.

    There’s no telling what the outcome of any particular case would be today as each case would be determined on it’s own merits, and the medical evidence presented would still only form one aspect of that decision. I make that point because I’m not convinced the Judge in the case found the medical and scientific evidence presented by either side particularly persuasive either way, but rather they relied on the application of Human Rights Laws in New York State.

    You mentioned Martina Navratilova, but overlooked the affidavit given by Billie Jean King in the Richards case. You’ll find all your questions answered here:

    https://casetext.com/case/richards-v-us-tennis-assn


    Both Martina and Billie Jean had to overcome their own battles against people’s prejudices and discrimination, not just in sports, but in wider society, as it was then at the time at least:

    https://www.outsports.com/2011/10/3/4051944/moment-2-martina-navratilova-comes-out/

    https://nypost.com/2021/08/14/how-billie-jean-king-was-outed-by-her-secret-lover-then-shunned-by-the-world/



    There’s good reason for bringing employment law into the discussion as Overheal is correct in that it applies in sports, depending of course upon the relationship between the parties involved in a dispute - they may have a contract which denotes an employer/employee relationship, or their relationship may be defined differently, and therefore not necessarily subject to employment law, but may be subject to examination under a different law (Title 9 prohibits unlawful discrimination in Education, Title 7 prohibits unlawful discrimination in Employment). That’s why the decision of SCOTUS in Bostock is important, because it provides a precedent if there were ever to come before the Court a case pertaining to unlawful discrimination in Education relating to discrimination on the ground of sex. That’s why Bostock was controversial - Gorsuch was accused of making new laws. He didn’t, obviously:

    Justice Neil Gorsuch wrote for a 6–3 majority that included Chief Justice John Roberts as well as the four liberals. “Only the written word is the law, and all persons are entitled to its benefit.”

    https://www.cato.org/blog/nod-scalia-surprise-plain-meaning-carries-day-lgbt-plaintiffs


    In terms of Irish law, there’s nuance there too, enough to distinguish it from laws which apply at the State and Federal levels in the US, and even the UK. For example most Irish athletes are not in the employment of Sports Ireland or the GAA, and Irish law distinguishes between an employee and a worker, whereas UK law does not. However, even though the circumstances in any case may not be a matter where the Employment Equality Acts apply, the Equal Status Acts may apply to prohibit unlawful discrimination. Even before the GRA was enacted for example, employers could be found liable for unlawful discrimination against an employee on the ground of gender (in the case of Louise Hannon, her employer was found liable on both the grounds of gender and disability):

    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/transsexual-is-awarded-35000/26724928.html

    https://www.williamfry.com/knowledge/landmark-ruling-in-uk-confirms-funded-professional-athletes-not-considered-as-employees/


    It was on the basis that she was not an employee of British Cycling or UK Sport that Ms. Varnish lost her appeal:

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jul/14/jess-varnish-loses-appeal-against-wrongful-dismissal-by-british-cycling


    I've reported this post for the same reason I reported OEJ - basically acusing me of dishonesty. Like OEJ, it seems that when your arguments are challenged you fall back on projecting your behaviour onto others.


    There’s a reason I chose not to respond to your comments yesterday, especially when you mentioned this:

    I'm not sure if that was a general remark or directed particularly at me but I'm at an age where I'm long past caring what people think of me😀!


    You’re clearly not of an age where you’re long past caring what people think of you. However, when you made that statement yesterday, I don’t imagine you were being dishonest then either. I don’t need to be a mind reader either to know that you genuinely believe your claims about yourself, in spite of evidence which contradicts your claims.

    Whatever you believe about yourself is of no concern to me in any way, shape or form whatsoever. What you believe about others is also of no concern to me whatsoever. When you attempt to form an argument that laws and how other people are treated should be based upon what factors you consider are either relevant or irrelevant, those are the only matters which are of any concern to me, because the basis of your argument is formed of your own ideas, absent of any grounding in objective reality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,117 ✭✭✭plodder


    For God's sake, the eligibility rules for sport - i.e. who is allowed to compete and under what conditions, have nothing to do with employment law.

    What do you think your links above establishing that professional athletes are not employees, is actually proving? Even if the case established that they were employees, it would still have zero relevance for the eligibility rules for sport, which are completely orthogonal.

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    For God's sake, the eligibility rules for sport - i.e. who is allowed to compete and under what conditions, have nothing to do with employment law

    who to believe, the one liner denial here or the detailed, annotated and cited response above 🤔

    You carry on trying to justify discrimination by pretending professional athletes are not professional but it doesn’t hold much water.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    They do though, and it will depend upon the nature of the relationship between the parties involved in a dispute whether they apply or don’t, in terms of their eligibility to participate in any sport or compete in international competitions. Professional athletes may, or may not be employees of the organisation they are affiliated with, they could also be self-employed, or they may not have any form of employment status. It depends upon the particular factors in each case. For example in the case of the athletes who had sponsorship contracts with Nike who experienced discrimination:

    Pregnant Nike athletes face losing their sponsorship salaries, as if a baby was a career-ending sports injury or terminal disease. Olympic athletes, Allyson Felix and Alysia Montano, violated their Nike Non-Disclosure Agreements to share their stories of discrimination with The New York Times. The “Dream Crazy” and “Dream Crazier” Nike ads made them angry because they are untrue to actual company practice (false advertising).

    https://rebekahpothaar.medium.com/when-nike-just-do-it-bullies-discriminates-against-female-athletes-edd005a071c8

    https://www.yourdaye.com/vitals/cultural-musings/pregnancy-discrimination-in-the-workplace/


    Its relevance to the eligibility rules for sport are quite obvious - discrimination can interfere with an athletes ability to make a living. They have a right under employment law and civil rights law to do so, even College Athletes in the US:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/06/learning/college-athletes-can-now-be-paid-but-not-all-of-them-are-seeing-money-is-that-fair.html


    Workers within the EU are also protected from discrimination on the basis of nationality by EU Employment Law (nuances to that too):

    Freedom of movement for workers has been one of the founding principles of the EU since its inception. It is laid down in Article 45 TFEU and is a fundamental right of workers, complementing the free movement of goods, capital and services within the European single market. It means that any discrimination based on nationality as regards employment, remuneration and other conditions of work and employment is prohibited. EU workers also have the right to accept a job offer made in another EU country, to move freely within the country, to stay for the purpose of employment and to stay on afterwards under certain conditions.

    https://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/41/free-movement-of-workers


    It’s relevant in terms of discrimination in employment in sports as it pertains to athletes eligibility to participate and compete in competition. Sex is not the only criteria, nor is it of the greatest importance in its own right. There are many other criteria or factors which apply, and though you may consider them irrelevant or orthogonal to the criteria which you consider relevant, the Courts don’t tend to view any circumstances the way you do.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Once you start arguing about legal threats you've given up on any faith in the argument that transwomen in womens sports is safe and fair.

    It's just open bullying of women.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    That's as ridiculous as saying that someone 'loses faith in the argument' when they file a discrimination lawsuit isn't it.

    Exercising one's rights under the law or making arguments to that effect isn't an iLose button.

    If women think they are being bullied for example, they can certainly begin a sexual discrimination suit. Something they do all the time, which hasn't forfeited them 'faith in the argument.' Prattle.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    No, you've got it wrong again.

    The case you linked to it's always been their argument that transwomen in women's sport isn't safe and isn't fair. They haven't changed their argument, it's a continuation of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    That nonsequitur has nothing to do with your argument that legal action means someone has lost the argument above.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 339 ✭✭2Greyfoxes


    Saw a recent interview with Professor Richard Dawkins.

    Seeing that he is a prominent evolutionary biologist and zoologist, it is quite fair to say that he carries a lot of weight in terms of an understanding of Biology.

    He is to put it quite bluntly, aghast at what is going on in sports, and rightly points out that it is unfair for Women to compete against Men.

    His damning point was that changing the mean of a word doesn't change reality, his example was if we change the word 'round' to mean 'flat', we would then call the Earth flat... however it doesn't mean the Earth is indeed flat, as that would be preposterous.

    That sports organisations have been dupped by this sophistry, is very alarming.

    Clever word play may win debates, but it doesn't make it true.

    Understanding and explaining things, is not the same as justifying them, if in doubt… please re-read this statement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 339 ✭✭2Greyfoxes


    I think you'll have to elaborate a bit more on that, and how it is relevant to this threads topic.

    Clever word play may win debates, but it doesn't make it true.

    Understanding and explaining things, is not the same as justifying them, if in doubt… please re-read this statement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    you’ll have to elaborate then on how being a zoologist and biologist is relevant to the topic right? Trans athletes aren’t zoo animals

    Youre attempting appeal to authority fallacy, and even then this authority you lean on espouses the same type of eugenics that were also espoused by the Nazis. Some authority you have picked there…

    This is the same guy aghast that people would raise a person with Down syndrome instead of abort them. His views on transgenderism through the lens of semantics (sophistic nonsense itself) are meant to be convincing?



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    This is tedious.

    If the legal action is a continuation of your argument it's not a problem.

    If the legal action is because your argument about fairness and safety has failed than it is a problem.



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