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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,473 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    it seems peacekeepers would be more likely defending their bases not moving to capture areas as the article describes, really dont know what the russia invasion/war has to do with peacekeeping



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,473 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    which occasion, I searched did not find anything, yeah they have the javelins now…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,429 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Not all UN deployments are peacekeeping. Some are peace enforcement, which includes engagements of organised hostiles, such as the UN mandated operations in the former Yugoslavia in the mid 1990s.

    And so it would absolute foolishness, neglectful even, for the tacticians of the armies of the World not to be looking closely at how the land war in Ukraine and Russia is evolving, now that the use of field artillery and armour is changing, as supplementary technology including drones and super-accurate counter-battery capability are part of the mix.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭RavenP


    they have had javelins since 2003. It was a Leb deployment 2015-16 ish I think.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    well for one, have you noticed the massive increase in Russian activities/violence across Africa? Or the overflight of one of our UNFIL bases by Russian helicopters? Or the expansion of non state actors that have vastly increased drone attacks across the globe since the high profile use of “relatively cheap” equipment in the war….


    All of which will influence Peacekeeping/enforcing missions from now on, units/vehicles/bases are going to need counter UAV capabilities at the very least.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,473 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    ok but the article was mostly about moving artillery to gain ground.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,473 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    would like to know which UN missions involved moving artillery to gain ground.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    it was also about how artillery can be targeted by the systems/threats I mentioned. UN missions always mean compromises about what gets taken and used but I’m sure for operations like Chad having mobile artillery as part of the patrols would have been welcomed if we hadn’t been avoiding such capability for so long.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭RavenP


    The situation I mentioned earlier was from 7th September 2014 Irish Independent. Link won’t paste alas. The IDF provided artillery cover Irish and Filipino when pinned down by Islamist fighters. The Israeli’s had offered to provide fire support because they had demanded the Irish did not deploy javelins or arty. Artillery is most definitely needed from time to time in a defensive role even in peacekeeping. Without it many Irish troops would have died.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    No pretty much any modern military has such capabilities whether its just Self Propelled Mortar systems, or tube artillery or rocket systems. We don't cause that would require investing…



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,473 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    IDF credited with saving Irish troops from jihadists on Golan

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-credited-with-saving-irish-troops-from-jihadists-on-golan/

    There were also unconfirmed reports that the IDF fired directly at militant positions during the operation.

    this the same event or was there two?

    Syrian government forces fired artillery rounds from a distance at one point to prevent the Filipino peacekeepers from being overwhelmed by the rebels

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/31/filipino-un-peacekeepers-escape-syrian-militants



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 93 ✭✭RavenP


    The first is the incident the second is not the same, but same time period. It does, nevertheless demonstrate that fire support is important in a peacekeeping role and that Ireland should consider deploying artillery and other heavy weaponry in peace keeping as well as for island defence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    You can really see the worth of javelins in those situation though, the ,the flexibility,portability and smaller logistics train, obviously far far dearer per shot fired , so less likely to fire a couple of warning shots , and obviously way less available shots..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,060 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Although - these days is the day of the expensive Atgm waning (I know horses for courses ) , to be replaced by the cheap , ubiquitous Fpv drones , a few hundred euro per unit , duck tape any RPG war head on to it , even longer range ,

    And you can practice flying it pretty much any where , for negligible cost,

    Pretty scary actually, I know there are jammers and anti-drone weapons, but looking at Ukraine ,Fpv and relatively cheap spotter drones are everywhere and still effective

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 300 ✭✭mupper2


    The whole global geopolitical system is fracturing, the 30 year post CW1, America is the only unassailable superpower is ending and we're all going to have to deal with the fallout from that….and that's before we even get to what climate change is going to do. They don't call it the age of perma-crisis for nothing.

    But to get parochial about us, the gov has said repeatedly that we'll continue with PK/PE missions and the most likely area of those is Africa..well it's not 2008 in Chad any more. The day the worst you'd run across is lads on bikes with rusty AKs and a smoke belching T-55 is gone, the whole continent is now awash is russian and more importantly Chinese kit, from FPV to full up fixed wing armed UAS, arty, armour, missiles….M23 fighting in Congo has used guided mortar rounds supplied by the Rwandans..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Yep, I can see history repeating itself at some point with ill-equipped Irish troops being deployed for a mission and taking causalities, and everyone will happily blame the troops and gloss over the lack of investment/equipment/capabilities even though as you say even a brief look at current/future situations in Africa shows how much firepower is already available to the groups and its only going to get worse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,429 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I dunno. Once Wagner appeared in the Sahel, it wasn't too long before UN sponsored presences there by France, Germany and ourselves among others, were abandoned.

    Now while Russian mercenaries may well die back as a powerful entity, I don't think there is any doubt that similar once-removed military contractors with connections to China, Iran, Syria, Nigeria, South Africa and other strategically important States, will become ubiquitous. And that means deployments by any western forces, under a UN mandate or not, will be in the shape of a full fighting force, with air cover, logistical support and state of the art field weapons.

    In fact, the dysfunction of the UN Security Council has become so great, that the likelihood of a UN resolution to authorise any intervention forces in conflict zones, is remote. And so that becomes a moot issue for Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,429 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    If I may suggest, now would be a very good time for that UNIFIL evacuation to Cyprus.

    Micheál Martin should start calling Übers, or however one scabs a lift from other nations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,429 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    This is interesting, if true.

    In an emergency or crisis situation, procurement and land planning processes can be suspended by the Minister for Defence, and assent of Cabinet etc.

    Now, who is to say what constitutes a crisis or an emergency, is another matter entirely.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,244 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The DOD is saying why did we put dates down on paper!

    I love the way they say industry moves slow and not the DOD.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    hey nobody matches the DOD for studies and fluff pieces, the industry wishes it was that quick… But seriously, going from an order to hardware operational by 2028 is actually pushing it for anything that has to be built given how far we are likely to be down the list.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,244 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Say they are serious and put orders in Jan 25 with straight of the shelf equipment they could turn it around by 28.

    They have nearly 3 years to do it.

    Someone mentioned here before airbus can turnaround a H145 in 12months. Look at the IRCG AW189s they are been turned around in 18 months.

    I am sure a radar system could be got easy enoght and they probably know what they want.

    The Armour replacement. The Mowags upgrade only finished last year so they could swet them a little longer of needs me. Again i am sure they know what they want. Put the order in with no special irish bits and pieces .

    As for the MRV if they dont know what they want at this stage they may throw the towel in!.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,429 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    You're right of course, but its quite evident we're going to be very far down a very long order book, given the World we currently live in.

    If we can get some solutions from partner nations that do the job, even on an interim basis, its worth pursuing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I think they know what they want, they just know they don’t want to pay for it… but yeah if things aren’t ordered within 6 months between the GE and timeframes forget 2028.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Perhaps we need to move to a higher LOA…EG: rename the A/C to the Irish Air and SPACE Force? As in "watch this space…we might buy a few more propellor air craft in ten years time"?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 523 ✭✭✭vswr


    knowing the DOD…. we'll probably invest in a load of high altitude weather balloons



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,244 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    As we know Leonardo made a submission that would kit us out with everything we need but i wonder would one of are fellow EU partners make us a simlar offer as apart from Italy,Germany and France could also supply us with everything we need. It would be a large payment but there could be good terms and condtions for the sale.

    More than likely we will buy from all over the EU to keep everyone happy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    yeah pretty much any of the major nations could supply us with everything for LoA2/3 and to be honest many of them would likely be willing to give us credit arrangements if we were willing to make a commitment. Realistically I can see us being European if no other reason than optics in the current climate, as you say it would make sense to go for one nation and tie it their economy of scales.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,244 ✭✭✭roadmaster




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,367 ✭✭✭sparky42


    some attention given to the recent DOD review

    https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2024/08/30/at-europes-atlantic-edge-ireland-to-focus-on-undersea-monitoring/



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