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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    That’s a fair point, it can be established in-utero where the equipment to do so is available. That’s what I mean by established - no need for the inverted commas.

    It doesn’t have to be unfortunate or avoidable when something can be done about it - like the organisation changing the eligibility rules for competition. It wouldn’t be the first time the rules were changed, as they did when the IOC dropped the previous requirement in their guidelines that males had to undergo an orchiectomy -

    “To require surgical anatomical changes as a precondition to participation is not necessary to preserve fair competition and may be inconsistent with developing legislation and notions of human rights,” it added.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/25/ioc-rules-transgender-athletes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭aero2k


    I don't believe Peter Coe was an athletics coach until he decided to coach Seb, aged around 13 / 14, as he wasn't happy with the coaching approach at Seb's club ( many people believed in long, slow distance training as promoted by Arthur Lydiard, and it worked for some athletes, but Peter insisted on more speedwork). Peter was more into cycling until Seb showed his running potential. Maybe a case of " when the student is ready, the teacher will appear".

    As for the rest of your post, you haven't addressed my question at all - nothing new there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    I didn’t address your question because it was nothing to do with the point I had originally made. Just like you haven’t addressed the point I was making which was Coe’s obvious confirmation bias. There’s zero chance of anyone winning gold medals at the Olympics if the rules of competition inhibit their participation at the earliest stages, doesn’t matter how genetically blessed they are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,588 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I'm not that that's a great revelation, or that trans people would even disagree. No trans person claims their sex changes. "sex change" is a misnomer. The whole concept of trans is based on the idea that sex and gender are differ not the same. Which you've just agreed with.

    This topic is only really concerned with sex.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass


    As Babs Keating(Tipp GAA man) once famously said "you can't train donkeys to win derbies"



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭Enduro


    The only confirmation bias here is yours. As usual, you feel the need to view the world as having nefarious actors suppessing the oppressed victims, who will be saved by your campaigning for whatever rights you perceive them being denied. I'm not surprised with that worldview that you're completely incapable of seeing, understanding, or accepting the dominant role that natural ability/talent/genetics/"choosing parents carefully" has on success at the highest level in sports (and a huge amount of other things).

    Coe doesn't have confirmation bias in this case at all. When it comes to athletics and what it takes to succeed, what he has is knowledge, experience and intelligence. You are lacking Coe's level of at least two of those traits, so it's hilarious that you can convince yourself that you know better than him.

    I happened to come across an article this morning that absolutely backs up fully Seb's core point on the role of genetics/natural ability. It might be worth contacting the scientists involved in the research to let them know why you are certain that they are wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    It’s only a misnomer if one is a subscriber to the theory that gender exists as an entirely distinct concept from sex. It wouldn’t make any difference what a person who is transgender would claim. AllforIt has made it clear on many occasions that he doesn’t subscribe to the concept of gender. The whole concept of trans is “the other side of”, and if one does not subscribe to the concept of gender as a distinct concept from sex, they’re being logically consistent when they use the term ‘sex change’ to refer to the intervention process - whether it’s social, medical or surgical.

    All these concepts have practical implications, which is why the discussion isn’t only really concerned with sex when an athlete competing in the women’s events can be accused of cheating on the basis that they don’t look like a woman, or, in at least one case, a girl -

    https://archive.ph/pYDUb



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Well, tbf, it's hard to keep track of what point you were trying to make, as you tend to pivot when challenged. I, and others, believed that you were asserting that genetics has only a trivial contribution to athletic success. I believe athletic success is like building a house - the better the foundation, the higher you can go. Of course coaching and opportunities for training and competition are essential too, as is encouragement. The exact % contribution of each varies between athletes. The way these things tend to work is that some older person notices that a young person has unusual natural ability, and directs them towards clubs, coaches etc. That seems to have been the case for Rhasidat Adeleke. She's actually a good example of your point re coaching and mine re genetics. The high performance person in athletics Ireland said "if you wanted to carve the perfect athlete, you'd end up with her", but she has had to up her game in training to try to catch those ahead of her.

    I don't get the comment re confirmation bias and Seb Coe. I can't find a reference, but I doubt he underplayed the importance of coaching and opportunities in his success. He had a very close relationship with his Dad, and was proud of his novel approach to coaching. I suspect he mentioned parents first, as genetics is the immutable component (absent PEDs).

    Perhaps your own bias is on display - you want the rules to allow all and sundry into elite competition, Coe has been clear on the importance of protecting women's sports.

    It would be helpful if you answered the question I asked.

    Re eligibility, the purpose of the rules is to exclude people. That's unavoidable.

    Post edited by aero2k on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭Enduro


    Just on one point in this… Why should Coe respond with something inspiring? He was responding with reality, not with some made up waffle just to try to be inspiring.

    I happen to think it's extremely de-motivating to tell people that to succeed they just have to work harder when they are already giving it their all, but have reached the limits of their natural ability. Refusing to acknowledge the reality of the role that natural ability / genetic inheritance plays is kicking these people in the teeth, proverbially speaking.

    You put a smiley after the last line, which is hilarious because that's the closest you've come to the reality of the world.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    I’m well aware of the role genetics plays in sports, that is the whole reason for the argument that men have a genetic advantage over women in sports. Coe’s achievements in sports were only possible because he competed in them. Had the rules prohibited his participation, then he wouldn’t have won gold medals at the Olympics.

    Attributing a world view to me based upon your own perceptions while presenting me with articles which support your view while lecturing me about confirmation bias and determining that I have either no knowledge, experience or intelligence, is a bit obvious.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,588 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Once again your whole point is based a false premise.

    It’s only a misnomer if one is a subscriber to the theory that gender exists as an entirely distinct concept from sex.

    That's not at all accurate.

    Whether somebody subscribes to the idea of gender exists distinctly from sex, or not doe snot change the fact that sex cannot be changed. Neither side holds that view, thus in all cases "sex change" is a misnomer.

    The claim that its not about sex is incredibly ignorant.
    Your ability to be consistently wrong about fundamental aspect is bizarre.
    Have you manged to form a logical argument why male sex hormones and male puberty don't exist.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Which is why I asked you - did you choose your own parents?

    You clearly could not have done, yet you are a successful athlete. He doesn’t have to say anything inspiring at all, it’s the fact that what he came out with is, to use his own words he used in another context when presented with the idea of the Enhanced Olympics - bollocks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Well, whatever about experience, knowledge or intelligence, I've no doubt you'd qualify for a PhD in the bleedin' obvious. Of course medals can only be won by those who compete. What was the point of that statement?

    Again with the mind reading. I didn’t have to attribute anything to you, you've done that yourself.

    As to you being well aware of the importance of genetics in sport: in the course of this thread you have variously denied that there was any performance difference between men and women, then allowed that there is but claimed that it has nothing to do with anything, so either your awareness must be in doubt, or you are not posting in good faith.

    Post edited by aero2k on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭Enduro


    I’m well aware of the role genetics plays in sports

    You cleary aren't if you think that Coe's answer that "choosing your parent's carefully" is his primary answer to the key to athletics success at the highest level is wrong.

    that is the whole reason for the argument that men have a genetic advantage over women in sports

    What argument? It's an accepted fact in the case of most sports that is reflected in both real-world results and scientific analysis. Only a few deluded extremist TRAs think they can argue against that reality and convince the world that their alternative perception of the world is real.

    Attributing a world view to me based upon your own perceptions while presenting me with articles which support your view while lecturing me about confirmation bias and determining that I have either no knowledge, experience or intelligence, is a bit obvious.

    Thank you for acknowledging the reality that current science supports my view (and Coe's view). As usual, you have failed to support your view with any evidence whatsoever. As ever, you just give us evidence-free waffle.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Once again your whole point is based a false premise.


    It isn’t. It’s based on not seeking to overcomplicate a relatively simple concept. Sex is understood to have many different meanings, and it was the attempt to establish psychology as a legitimate scientific discipline that psychologists came up with ideas relating to gender, gender identity, gender roles, gender stereotypes, gender expression, etc.

    Those people of a socially conservative view (such as myself), will use the term sex as an all-encompassing term. This is by no means unusual in the Western world, and by way of example, Judge Gorsuch’ opinion in Bostock:

    In Title VII, Congress outlawed discrimination in the workplace on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. Today, we must decide whether an employer can fire someone simply for being homosexual or transgender. The answer is clear. An employer who fires an individual for being homosexual or transgender fires that person for traits or actions it would not have questioned in members of a different sex. Sex plays a necessary and undisguisable role in the decision, exactly what Title VII forbids. 

    Or take an employer who fires a transgender person who was identified as a male at birth but who now identifies as a female. If the employer retains an otherwise identical employee who was identified as female at birth, the employer intentionally penalizes a person identified as male at birth for traits or actions that it tolerates in an employee identified as female at birth. Again, the individual employee’s sex plays an unmistakable and impermissible role in the discharge decision.

    I understand that other people have a different view, and that different approach exists in Irish law in the Gender Recognition Act:

    18. (1) Where a gender recognition certificate is issued to a person the person’s gender shall from the date of that issue become for all purposes the preferred gender so that if the preferred gender is the male gender the person’s sex becomes that of a man, and if it is the female gender the person’s sex becomes that of a woman.

    Exemptions exist for sports and various other activities:

    https://www.ihrec.ie/guides-and-tools/human-rights-and-equality-in-the-provision-of-good-and-services/what-does-the-law-say/exceptions/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭Enduro


    Firstly, in tribute to VoteforSquirrles :

    Untitled.jpg

    Again, do we really need it explained to you that the phrase "Choosing your parents carefully" is not meant to be taken literally? Really? Do you think that Coe meant that to be taken literally?

    I'm going to spell it out for you here, just in case. What Coe is saying is that Genetics / Natural ability is the primary key (NOT the only one) to athletics success at elite level. Do you understand this?

    So if you're asking was Genetics /natural talent the key to the levels I managed to get to in my sports then the answer is absolutely, yes! I could write pages and pages of examples to illustrate that reality, not least in my case my complete lack of success in many many other sports due to a lack of any natural talent for them (All other things obviously being equal).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    I think it’s best if we park it there Enduro.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭Enduro


    I think we all know exactly why you feel the need to "park it"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,515 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    It means that his father already being a coach in athletics meant that Coe was always more likely to be successful in sports than someone whose father wasn’t an athletics coach, but like many parents will want their offspring to follow in the path they had already established.

    Pure nonsense. There are so many athletes around the world who's parents have no association to their chosen sport. Yet again, you show your ignorance with a simple sentence. Do your research for gods sake.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,588 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    It is. I explain why in my post. Nothing in the above post backs up the idea the "sex-change" is not a misnomer.
    Even if you believe there is only sex and not gender, that doesn't mean you can change your sex.

    Also, those two paragraphs disagree with what you are saying. Ironically, you failed to grasp the basic english yet again.

    An employer who fires an individual for being homosexual or transgender fires that person for traits or actions it would not have questioned in members of a different sex.

    A homosexual man is somebody of male sex attracted to males. If they were a different sex they'd be female, and not objectionable for being attracted to males (to the employer in that example).

    A transgender person is one whose identity does not align to the sex. If they were the different sex, they would align, and thus not objectionable to that employer.

    Nothing in those paragraphs back up what you claim they do. Do you not grasp that a Gender recognition ask is about recognising gender and doesn't imply that you can change your biological sex.

    This is precisely the bait and switch argument I referred to. You tried this in the last Olympics with Laurel Hubard too.

    You've been proven wrong repeatedly, and you just move on to another incorrect premise.

    still wait for the evidence that male sex hormones and male puberty don't exist.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,118 ✭✭✭plodder


    It isn’t. It’s based on not seeking to overcomplicate a relatively simple concept.

    Okay …

    Sex is understood to have many different meanings, and it was the attempt to establish psychology as a legitimate scientific discipline that psychologists came up with ideas relating to gender, gender identity, gender roles, gender stereotypes, gender expression, etc.

    Bwahaha 😂 !!

    By the way, we discussed the Bostock case a couple of times before. What Gorsuch was saying is that you can't discriminate between two workers (eg office workers) who are equally good at their job, but one happens to be gay or transgender and the other not. No reasonable person would disagree with that.

    In the context of sport, biological sex, and transgender status go to the heart of the matter at hand (safety and ability to perform in the protected women's category). So, it's obvious to anyone that the reasoning will be different. Therefore Bostock has zero relevance.

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭aero2k


    @OEJ - apologies for the last two paragraphs, I confused two posts. ( probably more than two 😀).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Indeed, and Peter Coe had no association with athletics until his son showed his unusual ability. Realising that he needed a proper coach, he decided to take matters into his own hands.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    It is. I explain why in my post. Nothing in the above post backs up the idea the "sex-change" is not a misnomer.


    From your point of view it’s a misnomer. For anyone who doesn’t share your point of view, it isn’t. The practical implications of that which I referred to earlier also include prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sex. It isn’t necessary to be familiar with all the convoluted terminology, let alone subscribe to it.

    What, the point is that other people have different views, and the law recognises that while other people are entitled to hold those views, they are not entitled to discriminate against individuals or groups based upon those views, without being able to reason that the discrimination is a necessary means to achieve a legitimate aim. That justification will depend upon the circumstances involved -

    There are several general exemptions in the Acts. These exemptions should be read restrictively and should not be allowed to unduly restrict the general prohibition on discrimination.

    https://www.ihrec.ie/guides-and-tools/human-rights-and-equality-in-the-provision-of-good-and-services/what-does-the-law-say/exceptions/

    EDIT: Gorsuch reasoning had nothing to do with employees being equally good at their jobs. The law prohibits discrimination based upon characteristics.

    The reasoning in sports isn’t any different, there still exists the general prohibition on discrimination, except in very limited circumstances.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Likewise. My father played minor GAA at county level, he was also a gifted woodworker. He tried to coach me in the former, with no success - I have no aptitude for team ball games. He had some success in teaching me the latter where a different type of hand - eye coordination was required. I later discovered some ability in endurance sports, though that pesky genetic limitation wasn't long revealing itself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,588 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Now you are just lying. As I point out, if somebody doesn't believe that sex and gender distinct. It is still a misnomer. You can't seem to grasp that what you are claiming does align to any side of the argument. It's simply false.

    At this point I'm convinced you are trolling. As you've contradicted yourself repeatedly.

    Discrimination based on sex is wrong, the fact there are laws agaisnt it doesn't back up any of your BS.

    You said this earlier;

    What is  an impossible position to argue, is that humans can change sex. It’s not a position I’ve ever argued,

    Yet a mere 12 hours later. Here you are arguing that a "sex-change" is an actually procedure and not a misnomer.

    So there we have it. You are wrong, you are arguing a position that you have already pointed out is an impossible position to defend.

    [insert Picard meme]



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Discrimination based on sex is wrong, the fact there are laws agaisnt it doesn't back up any of your BS.

    The point of the example of Gorsuch’ reasoning is because in that case, the law which applies does not include gender; however it was interpreted to mean that their employers were liable for unlawful discrimination against homosexual or transgender employees on the basis of sex.

    You’re also going to have considerable difficulty at some point when you become aware of single-sex schools which do not include sex testing in their admissions policies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,118 ✭✭✭plodder


    EDIT: Gorsuch reasoning had nothing to do with employees being equally good at their jobs. The law prohibits discrimination based upon characteristics.

    You quoted Gorsuch saying:

    If the employer retains an otherwise identical employee

    what do you think he meant by 'identical'. Eye-colour, height? Or would they have to be identical twins? Doesn't seem likely.

    Or did he mean identical in terms of ability to do the job, since that's what the case was about - discrimination in employment?

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭aero2k


    One post refers to the rules of competition, the other refers to the rules of participation. Which one do you have a problem with?

    Just on Coe only winning medals as he was allowed to compete: without checking what rules applied in '80 and '84, and assuming sex tests only applied to females, anybody over 18 could have entered the races Coe won, subject to selection by their national federations and achieving the required standard.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭Enduro




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