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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,135 ✭✭✭TokTik


    So he has no agency? No brain? No say in whether to fight females??


    Stunning cop out



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,099 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    It's about as accurate as calling khelif and Lin male. We dont know this for a fact, yet it is constantly claimed here. The evidence against Lin is even less then khelif.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    That’s a remarkably definitive statement. It means that you are categorically stating that neither Kellie Harrington nor Amy Broadhurst have vaginas.
    On a subject matter as sensitive as this nuance matters.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭Enduro


    I said nothing about whether she has agency or a brain. For the record, I'm assuming she has both. I'm also assuming that she can decide for herself should she wish to participate or withdraw from a bout/tournament.

    The fact remains she didn't break any rules. That's not a copout, that's a simple fact (which I don't like at all, but it is still true). And that is the real issue here: the rules. And the core blame lies with the organisation responsible for setting up those rules, which is the IOC.

    If this targeting of Khalif eventually results in her never boxing again then the impact on the future of the female category in boxing will be pretty minimal. But if you target the IOC and put on enough pressure to force them to actually ensure that there is proper sex verification for athletes wishing to participate in the female category then that will have a substantially bigger impact on the future of the female category in boxing (and possibly on a wider range of sports as a consequence). I'd say the IOC are thanking their lucky stars that so many people are targeting the individual boxers. It's a very valuable "squirrel" for them to avoid the spotlight falling where it really should.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,118 ✭✭✭plodder


    Your post was a load of scutter that adds nothing of value to the discussion. Not literally of course, since the pedantic olympics are getting underway here.

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,118 ✭✭✭plodder


    It's not hard to believe that Khelif sincerely believes she is female, and by many yardsticks is (like the woman I posted about above). We don't know for sure, but the first inkling of an issue could have been the test last year. You can't really be surprised when people themselves push back against this. Which is why we need clearer rules and testing before it gets to this stage.

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    If that is the case you should have no issue deconstructing my post and showing me where I am wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,118 ✭✭✭plodder


    Why would I want to do that? The post is an incoherent mess. I did however see a version of this circulating on Twitter.

    Meanwhile a female author, who pretends to be a man when writing, and a proven misogynist are outraged.

    That's directed at JK Rowling who writes under a pseudonym sometimes, maybe with the hope of being taken more seriously than a writer of stories about witches and sorcerers. And maybe she used a man's name because she felt she would be taken more seriously again. So, that's not the big debate win some people seem to think it is.

    "proven misogynist" is just laughable.

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    My apologies. I should have written two sentences to help with comprehension. The proven misogynist is Elon Musk.
    There is, however, a certain irony in your statement that you don’t want to deconstruct my statement while attempting to deconstruct my statement.
    As I have said previously this issue is much more complex than some posters would care to admit. For those with rare conditions, people really need to show a little more compassion. We can argue fairness regarding sport but someone who was told she was female all her life and wasn't trying to game the system or live any other way than she has always been living doesn't deserve the treatment she's been getting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,118 ✭✭✭plodder


    My apologies. I should have written two sentences to help with comprehension. The proven misogynist is Elon Musk.
    There is, however, a certain irony in your statement that you don’t want to deconstruct my statement while attempting to deconstruct my statement.

    Well, the only bit I could make sense of, was the above, and I didn't do a great job of that.

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,773 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Gavin Cooney, one of our top sports journalists offers his thoughts. Clearly he doesn't know as much as some posters here.

    https://www.the42.ie/paris-olympics-6460785-Aug2024/

    Meanwhile, too many people were too willing to believe what they were told in Paris when it came to the stories of Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-Ting.

    Last year, the International Boxing Association (IBA) banned both boxers on the eve of their medal matches at the world championships for failing gender eligibility tests, but when the IOC confirmed both would fight in Paris, all hell broke loose.

    Khelif in particular became the subject of an astonishingly intense level of global scrutiny, tossed into the global culture wars and ultimately subject to the ridicule of Elon Musk and Donald Trump.

    Media outlets who should know better flung themselves into the story, accusing the IOC of an outrageous violation of the sanctity of female sports and of threatening the safety of the two boxers’ opponents. Amid the clamour and the outrage, facts were ignored, to the point the Boston Globe apologised for a headline incorrectly describing Khelif as transgender.

    Too few people paused for breath to acknowledge their source for this story: the disgraced and Russian-backed IBA, who have been excommunicated by the IOC. The IBA also repeatedly shirked multiple opportunities to clarify the facts around the case. Why had they suddenly banned the fighters years after they first started competing under the IBA’s auspices? What specifically were the tests performed on the two fighters?

    So here was an outlaw organisation making claims backed by flimsy evidence against fighters during an Olympics they were motivated to undermine. The IOC, meanwhile, didn’t do enough to try and quell the scale of the story, shrugging their shoulders and pointing to each of the boxers’ passports as their justification for allowing them to fight. By the time the IOC brought out a statement accentuating the IBA’s credibility issues, the story was already out of control.

    The IBA then got a free afternoon’s propaganda when they hosted a farcical press conference at which president Umar Kremlev spoke Russian via video link from Moscow to reporters in a building literally bearing the title Hall of Mirrors.

    There are vital discussions to be had around intersex athletes in women’s sport, with the ultimate ambition to preserve the sanctity and safety of female sport. But personalising it two fighters on the word of the disgraced IBA during an Olympic Games is not the way to do it. We don’t know about the fighters’ respective biological make-ups: all we knew about this story is that we did not know enough to leap to any firm conclusions.

    Many sports governing bodies have drafted policy and regulations around both transgender and intersex athletes, acknowledging how difficult it is to balance inclusion against competitive fairness. But the IOC, as a pop-up governing body for boxing at the Olympics, didn’t have any such policy for boxing.

    Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-Ting were caught in the public crossfire of two warring sports bodies, and the failure of the IBA and IOC to come together to share information and discussions in the interests of their wellbeing condemned the fighters to a horrifying fortnight in the public eye.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,152 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Good article - he points out that this was primarily a matter of sports governance (or non governance, as the case may be). The huge social media pile on against the two athletes concerned was pretty disgusting. The only people in the firing line should have been the IBA and the IOC.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭carveone


    here was an outlaw organisation making claims backed by flimsy evidence

    Maybe someone else has mentioned it but it's not as if the IBA did the testing. The DNA tests were handled by independent national laboratories, certified and accredited by the international Court of Arbitration for Sport. This is the same body that arbitrates drug testing for the Olympics.

    So if someone claims that it's flimsy evidence, then they have a bit a problem explaining why all other drug tests aren't also flimsy. Obviously they're only selectively flimsy - when they flag men cheating against women, not men cheating against other men. I mean you can't have men being unfairly treated, where would it end?

    And remember the test results aren’t supposed to matter anyway because according to the IOC, and the media outlets that are hysterically backing them, biological sex is irrelevant in women’s sports. The IOC actually declared, out loud and to everyone's astonishment, that the sole criterion for eligibility to compete against women is that the box on their passport is marked with an “F”.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    And the two athletes who knew they were ineligible.

    I doubt - hope - the gold medals will ultimately stand but they have as much validity as those won by other cheats.

    It's amazing that other female competitors were banned from the Olympics and had their medals removed - one for being 100g overweight and one for taking longer than 60 seconds to launch an appeal against an infraction.

    But clear and obvious advantages of male chromosomes and male puberty ? Well to some that's just fine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,118 ✭✭✭plodder


    And remember the test results aren’t supposed to matter anyway because according to the IOC, and the media outlets that are hysterically backing them, biological sex is irrelevant in women’s sports. The IOC actually declared, out loud and to everyone's astonishment, that the sole criterion for eligibility to compete against women is that the box on their passport is marked with an “F”.

    Exactly. I'd like to think that Thomas Bach realised that the game was up when the absurdity of this finally registered with him. That in some countries like the USA, you can decide that the gender flag in your passport can be whatever you want and in no way related to your sex, this is what applied for boxing which was the one sport the IOC assumed responsibility for.

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    But clear and obvious advantages of male chromosomes and male puberty ? Well to some that's just fine.

    Advantages and disadvantages, but nature has never been what stood in anyone’s path to success. Team Ireland didn’t do too bad at the European Transplant Sports Championships this year either:

    Team Ireland, with 25 athletes overall, returned home with a staggering 65 medals, consisting of 28 gold, 21 silver, and 7 bronze.

    https://www.corkindependent.com/2024/08/07/8-cork-transplant-athletes-win-26-medals-in-europe/#:~:text=Team%20Ireland%2C%20with%2025%20athletes,21%20silver%2C%20and%207%20bronze.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Vote4Squirrels


    You have more faith in him than I do - I think Bach is a true gender ideologue; he won’t be seeing the truth any time soon I fear.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,152 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    What should the two athletes have done…..withdrawn from the Olympics in anticipation of a pile on by right wing cranks and conservatives on social media? The two boxers don't make the rules and if the IOC had excluded them at the last moment before the Games started, they would have had very little comeback.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,118 ✭✭✭plodder


    Just to be clear, I meant that he decided not to seek re-election next year because he's found out that his ideas and principles are not in sync with what most people want.

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    That isn’t true though, neither your suggested reasons for him choosing not to seek re-election, nor the idea that his ideas and principles are not in sync with what most people want. It was hoped he would go for another term, but he’s chosen not to, and the only person so far who has put their name forward in the hope of being elected is Sebastian Coe:

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/16/thomas-bach-open-to-extending-ioc-presidency-to-dent-seb-coes-ambitions

    https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Articles/2024/08/11/ioc-thomas-bach-not-seeking-third-term


    Bach has never cared about, nor given any thought whatsoever, to what you think most people want.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,921 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    Advantages and disadvantages

    IMG_20240817_231958.jpg IMG_20240817_231901.jpg

    *European Transplant and Dialysis Sport Federation (ETDSF)
    *European Heart and Lung Transplant Federation (EHLTF)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,118 ✭✭✭plodder


    Well, neither of us really knows exactly what his thinking was, which is why I said "I'd like to think … "

    But he was quoted saying that new people were needed with new ideas … "New times are calling for new leaders"

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    We do know what his thinking was, because he said what he was thinking. That you’d like to think he was thinking what you think about what most people want, wasn’t it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I have to ask Q - what am I meant to be looking at there?

    Vote4Squirrels was making the point about how for some people the advantages of male chromosomes and male puberty are just fine, and I was countering that point by pointing out that it’s not nature that has ever stood in the way of anyone’s path to success, by pointing to the success of the Team Ireland in the recent European Transplant Sports Championships.

    I was thinking there’d be some craic moaning about ‘biological advantages’ at those events 😂

    I’ll admit I’m biased though, as one of my relatives competed at the Championships 😬



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,921 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    There's three categories, heart / lung transplant, dialysis, and open / other transplant. They make the point if a dialysis patient enters the open category they won't be eligible for a separate, dialysis competitor medal, (presumably they make this point because patients undergoing dialysis wouldn't be expected to compete against people who may have had transplants years ago) they have their own category but they can choose to compete on the open category if they want to.

    Should someone who had a kidney or liver transplant be able to identify into the dialysis category?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I think they make the point because if a competitor enters the open category, they can’t then compete in the dialysis category. The open category is there for athletes who haven’t undergone an organ transplant and are on dialysis, and athletes who have undergone an organ transplant. If they’d a liver transplant, they might not have gotten to the stage their kidneys have failed and they require a kidney transplant, but they might be on dialysis and would be eligible to compete in the dialysis category.

    I get what you’re asking now though, it’s analogous to whether or not a man should be eligible to compete in the women’s category, and I’ve no issue with it, same as I’d have no issue with someone who has had a liver or kidney transplant competing in the dialysis category. The equivalent of what I think they’re saying there is that if an athlete enters the women’s category, they can’t then enter the men’s category too, which I can completely understand, because that’s just taking the piss.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,921 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    I'd read it rather as the equivalent of them saying women are free to enter the open category, but if they do there's no medal for coming 'first of the women', they categorically don't say (the equivalent of) men are free to enter the women's category



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    They do make a distinction though? It applies to heart and lung transplant athletes - they explicitly aren’t eligible to compete in the dialysis category.

    EDIT: I think I see what you’re asking now. It just didn’t make any sense asking should an athlete be able to identify as to be eligible to compete in a category when the question of their eligibility isn’t simply a matter of identity.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,118 ✭✭✭plodder


    Bach has never cared about, nor given any thought whatsoever, to what you think most people want.

    Are you Thomas Bach? Or can you show me where he has stated the above? Because it's not in either of the links you provided.

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,127 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    That’s precisely the point? There is no evidence that he has ever thought what you’d like to think he was thinking, but there is evidence of what he was actually thinking, because he said it. It wasn’t because he thought the game was up or that he thought his ideas weren’t in sync any more with what people wanted, it was because he cares about the credibility of the games and he cares more about the future of the organisation than the fact that the board wanted him to stay on -

    “In order to safeguard the credibility of the IOC, we all -- and in particular, I, as your president -- have to respect the highest standards of good governance which we have set for ourselves,” Bach said to the membership.

    "I strongly believe that after 12 years in the office of IOC president, our organization is best served with a change in leadership. During all these years, you my dear colleagues and friends, have always followed the mantra I pronounced when introducing the Olympic agenda -- change or be changed. This mantra does not only apply to the comprehensive and far-reaching reforms we have undertaken together. This mantra also applies to me.”

    “For this new way of living, I, with my age, I am not the best captain,” Bach said. “New times are calling for new leaders. I know that with this decision I’m disappointing many of you. I can only plead with you that I am deeply convinced this to be in the best interest of our beloved Olympic movement.

    “You all know me and therefore you know that this Olympic movement, its athletes and its values have and always will be central to my thinking and close to my heart. This is why it goes without saying for me that I want to ensure a smooth transition, to hand over the steering wheel of our ship to my best possible successor, whom you will choose.”

    He’s overseen numerous positive changes to the games, and overseen far more controversial decisions than any decisions made about competitors in the Paris Olympics, and his hope is for those ideas to carry on under new leadership.



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