Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Oh FGS the thread is doing that maddening thing again of sending notifications that someone has replied to me but when I try to see it, it says that there's no such post.

Apols to anyone I fail to respond to!

The latest posts thing seems to telling me there's been several new posts in this thread since yesterday but this is the latest one I can see.

This is the most recent one appearing in my feed…

This is most unlikely to be a serious problem as long as informed consent is given by all concerned.

Katie Taylor has had male sparring partners for years, so there’s no reason why this couldn’t be done for competitions if needed.

That’s not what has been happening in the female category in the Olympics though, where women have potentially been misled about who they were fighting.

But they’re not non-males. They’re males who were mistakenly AFAB, ie whose documentation does not correspond to their genetic make-up.

That’s why that is a different issue IMO from Imane Khelif fighting women who are told they are fighting a biological woman.

But in any case, even if you are correct, the solution is still not to have biological males fight women - and that is what has been happening in the OG. Let’s stop that first, and sort out any resulting inconsistencies afterwards.

When did Lance Armstong fail a test?
The test results of other athletes are often available after they have been disqualified.

Male/Female being defined by gamete type is how species are sexes are defined across species not on a individual level.
It would be a pretty awful definition to use for sports seeing as someone who is infertile is excluded. XX and XY is better on an individual level.

The spectrum of DSDs still throw up some weird anomalies;

XY but no male puberty.
XX who has testes
XXY…etc

The Fina/World Aquatics policy certainly seems to be one of the better ones. And to me it seems to be a fair balance with been not affording anyone a unfair advantage, but also not excluding anyone unfairly. The latter point is what many people seen to miss.

There criteria for exclusion is "when the person went through male puberty". That seems to remove the obvious unfairness.
But worth pointing out that a somebody with an androgen insensitivity DSD, or pre-puberty gender reassignment would meet that requirement but fail a sex chromosome cheek swab.

Most high level sports people have some sort of genetic quirk that makes them the best. Something that means they can swim faster or run for longer or lift heavier or throw further.

High level sports is inherently unfair if you think about it. It is not a level playing field. There is a reason that marathon winners tend to be from Kenya or Ethiopia. There is a reason that swimmers tend to have longer arms and shorter legs.

Elite sport is unfair. At some point you need to draw a line, so the real question is where.

Surely “Male” and “Female” is a fairly logical place to draw that line though?

Or are you saying we should just get rid of male and female categories altogether?

What about weight categories?

We’re are discussing how makes are excluded. The gamate based definition was posted, I’m simply highlighting how it doesn’t work on an individual level as the criteria.

I’m not sure what part you are disagreeing with tbh.

Obviously those male advantage should not be in female sports. The issue is how that it defined (and I supposed policed).

Coincidentally one specific DSD was actually known as “super-male”. But it wasn’t based on athletic advantages.

XX seems sensible. Do we then accept XX DSDs with advantages as being an acceptable genetic advantage.

What about chromosome disorders outside of XX and XY.

I don’t think there is an objective test for having gone through puberty. But the onus is on the athlete to prove it to the satisfaction of FINA. Presumably either medical records of treatments, a diagnosis of CAIS, etc.

I’m not sure what ethical implications you are referring to specifically. But the idea is that avoiding puberty avoids any advantage. My understanding is that’s specifically there to cover the likes of DSDs where reassignment is medically advised.

What is the "super male" condition , I simply dont know any or any complaints? the only genetic disorder that comes to mind is gigantism and I wouldnt die on a hill either way if there were height restrictions for instance if Basketball decided either way to allow or disallow.

You start with a cheek swab (which the vast majority of females athletes wanted to keep), and if there's anything out of the ordinary you do further tests for clarification, and confirmation.

It really is that simple.

The usual measuring scale is Tanner. AFAIK it’s purely observational but as long as it’s administered by an independent specialist I don’t think it’s controversial because it’s a list of criteria that are either absent or present, so there is no room for variability depending on who administers the test.