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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,164 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Should Khelif be boxing in the men's division then? I would imagine 99% of male amateur boxers would be extremely uncomfortable and uneasy about boxing someone who might have a female anatomy under their outfit and who had lived their life as a girl and then as a woman.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,205 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    TBF it's not a bad article. For once they've quoted someone like Emma Hilton, and also Reem Alsalem UN rapporteur for violence against women.
    However they've been a little disingenuous in describing Emma Hilton's links with "Sex Matters", but not that their opposing "expert", Alun Williams was part of Caster Semenya's appeal to the CAS.

    They also fail to explain that sex screening (the cheek swab) is not intended to be the only test for 100% of all women: rather, it is a speedy, inexpensive and non invasive way of sorting out the vast majorithy of candidates are proven to be women.

    For the small number for whom the cheek swab gives an unsatisfactory response, further tests can then be done on those individuals.

    And the idea that this would be too intrusive, in a context where athletes ahve to urinate in front of a stranger in order to prove they have not used someone else's urine to escape dug doping, is laughable.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,923 ✭✭✭Enduro


    Oh lord, how could we make male boxers uncomfortable? The horror.

    Does it cross your mind at all that perhaps, maybe, just possibly, female boxers might be just a little bit uncomfortable and uneasy about having to enter the ring with a boxer with all the advantages of having gone through male puberty? Or should they just have to "suck it up" in case the alternative might make a bunch of males uncomfortable?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,836 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Because it just identifies as being up to date



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,434 ✭✭✭✭Birneybau




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,256 ✭✭✭✭normanoffside


    Khelif just won the gold with another 5-0 win. Didn’t lose a round all tournament.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭carveone


    Just as well considering fetishistic lunatics like Jørund Alme (google if you have a strong stomach).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,123 ✭✭✭plodder


    You gave about me saying XY woman saying the phrasing was man. Now you are backtracking and are fully happy to have them live their lives as women. Therefore they are XY women.

    Whether they can compete in female categories is a different story to your snide remark.

    You lost me there. What backtracking? And what snide remark?

    “Fanaticism is always a sign of repressed doubt” - Carl Jung



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,164 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    My point would be that if Khelif is excluded from women's boxing, she would have to be excluded from men's boxing as well. She could hardly fit the legal definition of a "man" (given that she is listed as a woman on her own birth certificate and passport) or be eligible to compete against men.

    Presumably, if such athletes are banned from women's sport over the chromosome issue, they will not be allowed compete against men either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,178 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    I am struggling to understand how Khelif has emerged as this unstoppable fighting machine this Olympics, given she lost nine fights before them, and previous opponents AFAIK did not claim she had unnatural punching power.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    5 of those came very early on in her career when she was 19/20 and being naturally strong doesn't equal a strong punch. You do need good technique.

    Another thing to remember is it's great having a big punch but you still need to be able to land it. Height and reach are big advantages and has both of those but a fighter still has to learn ring craft. She's still only 25 and if she hadn't have been disqualified from the 2023 World Championship she would have been favourite to win that final.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 92,276 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    No matter what people tell you, words and ideas can change this World



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,923 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    posted without comment…

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,205 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    No because only the women’s category needs to be protected. The “male” category can be “open” without there being any harm done to men: if children or women wanted to take part in it, that would be up to them.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,588 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    I've no idea what you couldn't, there was nothing complicated in what I said. You haven't asked me a single question that I haven't answered. I'm not beholden to your lack of comprehension, nor is anyone else. if you no idea, that's your issue.
    But I don't believe you have no idea, I think that its easy to say that can actually respond to acknowledge your lies.

    Trying to twisting my words onto saying I'm ok with women getting beaten you is truly pathetic. If you can't make sense, make up lies, I guess.

    This is what you said;

    As I said, my position is that there needs to be systematic sex-screening for all female boxers, rather than wait until coaches from other teams start complaining, which is what is said to have happened here. It is not good for the individual boxers concerned that this has happened in this way - it's unnecessarily humiliating for them.

    This was my direct reply to that;

    I agree with all of that, especially "unnecessarily humiliating". I've never condoned XY athletes in female divisions. But the athletes here, if XY, have a natural disorder. It's not their fault and a quiet tap on the shoulder would have been appropriate

    I have no idea how you couldn't understand that. It's plain english. I used XY to avoid any ambiguity.
    Twisting that to present is as if I'm ok with men fighting women in the ring is frankly a disgusting lie to come out with.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,205 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    I didn’t disagree with any of that though - except that the “IF” bit is wrong: the results have been leaked and the two athletes concerned are indeed XY.

    https://www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/5/fa9lt6ypbwx5su3z20xxnfzgtao0gy

    At this stage the only thing stopping the results being published so we can all see them is that they are the legal property of Khelif and Lin, who have sent lawyer’s instructions preventing anyone from publishing them.

    That, plus the fact that neither athlete chose to appeal their DQ to the independent appeals board tells us what those results were.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Given that posters have been arguing against the idea of passport ID as a basis for Khelif being entered into the women's section, why do you think they would argue for passport ID to rule a person out of the men's competition, and into a sort of gender limbo?

    That makes no sense.

    Btw, is it still your view that strength isn't relevant in Olympic boxing?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,099 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    The results have been leaked a journalist that no one has heard of:"3 wire sports". This leak would have a lot more creditability if it was leaked to a recognised newspaper and not involving a Russian backed sports organisation. If they were going to leak the tests results it is questionable why they didnt leak to established media- a lot of right wing press would have confirmed the test results then.

    There are definite red flags as you state but you are 100% believing the IBA when still doubts remain.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,205 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    No I'm not, I'm saying when there are doubts that can be lifted immediately by the boxers concerned, and they choose not to do that, that is not a situation that should be allowed to continue. Because if there is any doubt as to whether males are being allowed to fight women, then hiding behind claims about procedures is not good enough.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,099 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    I would agree with everything you have said there about the boxers could clarify perform actiosn to remove the doubt

    But you did state " the two athletes concernedvare indeed XY". And also your provocative banner does suggest you 100% believe the accusation. When there is still reasonable doubt given how unreliable and corrupt the iba is and the strangeness of leaking to only one journalist.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,205 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    I do believe it, for the reasons I've given, but it's an opinion. I've acknowledged several times that the results have been kept secret at the demand of the boxers concerned.

    It just makes no sense that they would go to such lengths if the results favoured them. And my fundamental belief is that there doesn't need to be any doubt, and that this needs to be sorted out. Hiding behind "but their passports say so" is just insufficient. Nobody would take the team's word that a boxer was not doping, nor even let them self declare their weight.

    This issue is equally important - unless we are going to get rid of the female category altogether, which would at least be honest.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,256 ✭✭✭✭normanoffside


    The Taiwanese just won gold, so both boxers previously banned from female competition won gold. 2 out of the 6 gold medallists in the female category.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 92,276 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    ..

    GUnNt0tWsAA3x4d.jpeg

    I see Sasha Baron Cohen 😁

    Did any other female medal winners celebrate like this

    No matter what people tell you, words and ideas can change this World



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,392 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    2 very comprehensive tournaments too in that neither dropped a single round. Only 1 other Champion has done that but it is a possibility in the Men's Super Heavyweight competition.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 854 ✭✭✭greyday


    And by coincidence………..2 of the few women that win gold have an extremely rare disorder…..



  • Posts: 553 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ridicolous that she was allowed to compete, If your born with XY and female genatalia i have sympathy, but don't ruin it for all other athletes and have cop on.

    If an XY Male beets my daughters who are into sports I'm just not sure what i'll do:

    Tell them to give up sport as you wont beet someone with XY?

    Tell them to train harder as there females with XY chromosomes with more testorone?

    I'm hoping i can tell the that the world will eventually cop on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,164 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    The "Khelif is a man" claims completely ignores the fact that it would literally be impossible for her to compete against men in a boxing competition. Presumably the passport ID criteria would be seen as even more pressing and relevant for entry than any chromosome tests : no person who is legally listed as one gender can show up in an Olympic sport with another gender.

    The strength argument was addressed in that BBC article I linked to a little further up. Science is divided on this : some scientists feel such an athlete would have no physical advantage, others suspect they would have. The article points out there is a complete lack of data on this. Virtually no studies have been conducted to test how strong females who have male chromosomes are compared to other females.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    Would any heterosexual male here be interested in dating either of the boxers disqualified from the IBA who subsequently won Gold medals at the Paris 2024 Olympics? If the athletes are women, there's gotta be a few interested bachelors who like a strong woman. Their masculine appearance is the first strong signal of their biological sex, but there are women with masculine features.

    However, the athletes wouldn't have blocked the publishing of their tests if the tests favoured them and put to bed the deserved speculation and condemnation. If they were wrongly disqualified, they would have fought the decision and probably sued the IBA.

    Stay Free



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,740 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    I can't imagine that's the usual way that Muslim males would celebrate with females, or consider appropriate behaviour. They know



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