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Deposit return scheme (recycling) - Part 2

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,346 ✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    Why would Coca Cola Poland be putting Irish DRS barcodes on their cans?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,227 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Who is profiting is the question. Lets speculate a bit about that…

    Currently return is profiting simply because a lot of people dont claim deposit back. Middle man re shops are at zero. Customers are at zero or losing but willingly.

    If return is printing these and they are applied to imported stuff then return is charging levy, shop which sells them is at zero and customer is at zero if they are returned and deposit claimed. If deposit is not claimed return is profiting same as above and customer is losing but willingly.

    If shops are being creative and making them themselves then they are profiting, return is losing (actual loss is debatable since we are constantly reminded they are non profit and they do have quite a big slush fund from non claimed deposits to absorb this cost) and customer is at zero or losing but willingly if deposit is not claimed.

    If customers are printing them they are profiting and return is losing and as above they may be able to absorb costs due to excess they get from not claimed deposit and also imports of not labeled stuff is slowly drying out.

    Another possible scenario is printing 25c labels and applying them on 15c bottles which is possible but seems too much of a hassle for 10c unless someone is doing it on industrial scale. In this case return is losing but I do not expect to see this happening in any meaningful way to reduce return profits from non claimed deposits.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,227 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Importer may be obliged to do so. I dont know if they are but I know about danish coca cola which is still being imported, sold, deposit not charged and not useable in return machines.

    So I personally think that in case of this polish coca cola it may be just some enterprising venture by said garage. I will check my local polish shops and see if they do have similar stickers on their drinks. They do have return bags so I presume they are charging deposits and also pay deposit back when you bring logoed containers in. I will ask as this labeling issue is interesting one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 983 ✭✭✭bog master


    So take that 0.15 cent deposit you forego, 5 million cans/bottles per day being sold according to ReTurn, and even if 1% of people forego the deposit it's a nice tidy sum!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,346 ✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    Ive not been in a Polish shop in ages as my local SuperValu has a great selection of Polish produce. However, while shops are obligated to pay back the deposit and take your empty bottle, there have been several accounts on this thread of people getting blank looks and "oh I dont know…"'s

    I suspect if you try to bring back your DRS cans to the Polish shop, the usually chatty shop assistant will suddenly forget all her english.

    And who can blame her. If they dont have a DRS machine, what are they meant to do with your empties?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,991 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The Polish shops Ive been into feels like they would be less than 250 sq metres so exempt from having to take back.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,236 ✭✭✭✭thesandeman


    They are obliged to if they are being sold in Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,227 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    We do have few small but 2 big ones and I have seen clear big plastic bags with return logo on them in one of bigger shops. No machine in there.

    Yet, there is quite small off license shop which does have a machine in. May be good for business, generally until enterprising unwell person brings in a batch of freshly bin fished containers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,184 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Importers absolutely can do this, once you have registered the barcode and paid the fees.

    And grey imports are also legal, Coca Cola Ireland cannot stop you doing it - but you have to pay the fees, not them.

    Now, that doesn't mean this is actually done legally in this very case; but it can be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84,761 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    Yes understood but the barcode in that example is a Coca Cola Ireland barcode which doesn't represent the source of the product.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,184 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I googled it and found a wholesaler listing it as "can", nothing else anywhere and makes me suspect its a grey import via them.

    Searching for the barcode on a Coca Cola Ireland thing finds hundreds to thousands of listings; not just one from one wholesaler.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,346 ✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    My point was, I really dont think Coca Cola Poland are targetting the Irish market. I suspect someone bought a load of cans in Poland and brought them here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,236 ✭✭✭✭thesandeman


    I know, but it may have been a legit distributor and they've paid the deposit to Re-turn. We don't know.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,346 ✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    I got a takeaway the other night with a can of coke, and the writing on the back of the can was in Arabic. No barcode, no re-scam logo. Was I charged 15 cent extra? Frankly, I'm both ignorant and apathetic. In other words, I dont know and I dont care.

    I suspect there is a stream of unregistered cans coming into the country from other countries.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭dazberry


    I was walking out of my local Spar yesterday evening and a guy that begs outside that Spar arrived in with a large blue sack of returns for the machine. The lads behind the counter told him the machine wasn't working so he was naturally cursing about it. Thing was I'd used the machine about a minute earlier. I'm guessing they're just fed up of this sort of enterprise and are trying to discourage it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,227 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Then it could be enterprising garage owner. Could be as simple as scanned coca cola barcode and return logo and printed out…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,227 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Ireland is choke full of danish coca cola in cans. They dont come in with logo and cant be deposited in wonder machines. They are for sale pretty much everywhere. They also taste better for some reason. I need to check ingredients but it is quite possible they still use sugar instead of artificial sweetners like in coca cola produced in Ireland. Polish sugar variety also taste much better.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,227 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Which is not right.

    I dont know but I was under the impression that if machine is not working they are obliged to do manual return. Is that true or not?

    I was in lidl today and both machines out of order staff didnt want to hear anything and cursing people hauling sacks back to their cars. I personally do not use machines in lidl they tends to spit out every third can or bottle. I prefer dunnes machines they do work like charm.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    I saw Danish coca cola cans with Carlsberg on the label.

    I didn't buy them, I think they came from a pizza place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    They'd probably prefer to have the machine available to paying customers like yourself.

    A bulk machine would be better for people with large sacks of returns.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,184 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Normal Irish Coke still uses sugar

    Carlsberg are the bottler for Denmark, Hellenic are the bottler for Ireland (North and South, the plant is in NI). You might see the Hellenic logo on vending machines here but they just use "HBC" on the cans I think.

    Coke themselves are the bottler for most of Europe except the bits that Hellenic and Carlsberg have including GB.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Thanks for the info.

    I think I'll stick to the Carlsberg beer.

    Ice cold in Alex 🙂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,381 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Yes, the shop 100% has to take a manual return if the machines are not working. If they refuse, ask for a manager and if they still refuse email Rescam and the HQ of whatever shop it was to complain. The more people go elsewhere, the worse this will get. We need shops to be put out over it, because us bitching won't change anything, but shops making a loss (ie: paying employees to do the work of another company) won't last long.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,578 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Thats the predictable problem with this scheme. Those fallen on hard times are likley to go through bins, looking for recyclables and potentially leave a mess whilst they are at it.

    As if the streets arent bad enough with all the seagulls ripping at the plastic bin liners.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84,761 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    Yes would really need to see what it identifies as when put it inside the RVM, I think the SuperValu machines show the actual product name when you put an item through.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,227 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Dunnes one only say bottle or can and 15c or 25c. I know for a fact that it will take 15c bottle and pay 25c if there is 25c sticker applied. That is sticker from 2l bottle applied to a 0.5l bottle. So much for "shape and weight recognition".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    This link says retailers can choose manual or RVM.

    https://re-turn.ie/retailer/

    We discussed this some time ago and some thought retailers should have to accept manual returns when machines aren't working but it's not clear that they have to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 983 ✭✭✭bog master


    And once again I ask, "has anyone completed a manual return" ???



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    I've used RVMs at Dunnes, Tesco, Lidl, Supervalu and Centra but I've never even seen a manual return.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 983 ✭✭✭bog master


    Since this is the third time me of asking, of a small yet dedicated audience of posters, one could come to a conclusion that manual returns as touted by the Minister is a red herring. Great question to ask of him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,582 ✭✭✭greasepalm


    I asked the manager of Supervalu in Mount Merrion and they except manual returns if machine is not working or issue with identifying the item. The manager had no issues cleaning out the machine and putting a new sack in awaiting for the next load.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    As you say it's a small sample.

    I could never see the attraction of manual given the labour cost involved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,381 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    I'm not going reading 20 odd documents to find where it says retailers can refuse manual returns. I did open the one named Retailer Need to Know guide and it doesn't mention it. The options to the consumer are rvm or manual. If the rvms are not working, manual is the only option and they can't refuse. The only options available to retailers is charge but don't have returns (exemption) or accept returns.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Archeron


    Is there one single aspect of this that Return havent made a complete and utter bollix of?

    And they are siphoning off tens of millions of euro from the public for the privilege.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Ok, so is it true to say that you have nothing to prove your assertion that retailers must offer manual return if their RVM is out of action ?

    You can say it all day long for all I care but it's not helping.

    I just want to find out one way or the other.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,624 ✭✭✭jj880


    Yes. Re-Turn have planned and executed this perfectly:

    siphoning off tens of millions of euro from the public

    Saying the architects of Re-Turn are incompetent could be doing them a disservice. I'm starting to think theyve achieved 100% of what they wanted including gauging the bare minimum DRS required for this heist.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,037 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Is there one single aspect of this that Return havent made a complete and utter bollix of?

    Hmmmmmmm….Let me think.

    And they are siphoning off tens of millions of euro from the public for the privilege.

    Oh yeah, that's the aspect they didn't make a complete and utter bollix of.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,381 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Just like you're not proving retailers have a choice, just info dumping and expecting others to prove it for you? The main landing page of the rescam website has the exact information needed. It says nothing about having to go to different machines if they're not working. If a place has rvms, they're accepting returns. The options to return are rvm and manual. It's not either or. So, you can say it all day long for all I care but its not helping.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,106 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    "DEPOSIT RETURN OPTIONS

    A Guide For Retailers

    A Retailer will have two options when offering a take-back service for the empty, undamaged drinks containers featuring the Re-turn logo returned by consumers:

    Manual Returns or Automatic Returns through a Reverse Vending Machine (RVM).

    The volume of sales and expected returns, of drinks containers is a key driver in determining whether a Retailer chooses manual collection opt for automatic collection via RVMs."

    Above is from the link you said you wouldn't read earlier.

    It doesn't say retailers must offer manual if the machines are out of order.

    If you have any better information please post it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭SteM


    This came up on the thread ages ago and no one seemed sure. I spoke to a friend who manages a Tesco about it and he said that once they had an RVM they were covered for returns and did not have to accept manual returns.

    He said that the collection company had a a specific manual return process that required them to provide certain bags that had a barcode that, on collection, would be scanned in along with a form that had listed the amount of cans/bottles in that bag. He said the reason for that is the Tesco store would get payment per item returned so the collectors will not just accept a black bags of bottles or cans.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,109 ✭✭✭Sarn


    The legislation (S.I. No. 33/2024 - Separate Collection (Deposit Return Scheme) Regulations 2024) states that a return point operator shall “take back every in-scope bottle and in-scope container returned to it by a consumer in the manner agreed between the return point and the approved body,”.
    “Manner agreed” implies that until Return requires that an alternative manner of collection be in place when an RVM is broken, there is no requirement for shops to offer a manual return.

    Their FAQ on the issue of broken RVMs does not inspire confidence:

    What can I do if an RVM is malfunctioning?

    Notify the Retailer of RVM malfunction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,381 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Approved Body is Re-Scam. Manner agreed, from my reading of that legislation, is not defined. But it's the manner agreed between retailers and re-scam. So the agreement is between the return point (participating retailers, because there is nowhere else at the moment) and the approved body (re-scam). So it's nothing to do with consumers, from my reading of it. The joys of legislation! I don't think there are any "return point operators" as per Part VI, as all of them fall under the umbrella of retailers as per Part V. The only option to consumers is to return at a participating outlet, and doesn't define if it has to be either or. A return point is a return point, and I haven't seen anything specifically state retailers can choose one or the other.

    I've emailed re-scam to see what their advise is. Not that I expect a reply, but if I don't get one, I'll just email them again and CC in every single TD I can get an email for.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭crusd


    I would like to figure out what I have been doing wrong. I have yet to have a single eligible bottle or can that Return machines have not accepted. On a couple of occasions I have had to wait 2 minutes for someone to clear the machine. What have I been doing incorrectly? I feel so left out of the frothing rage?

    Is it that I have been using the machines as intended? How idiotic of me



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,346 ✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    You have answered your own question there. The siphoning off of tens of millions of euros they did perfectly and ensuring the money keeps rolling in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,346 ✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    I can't remember the exact quote or indeed which movie it was in but it went something like:

    "You think that was mis-management? That was perfectly orchestrated fraud".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭crusd


    Remind who the profits from the non profit set up to run the scheme go to?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,346 ✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    Its a non-profit, its not a charity.

    Incidentally there are lots of charities around the place that just cover operating costs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,991 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Some shops are better at running the machines than others. It is hit and miss. Your mileage may vary.
    The machines in my local Dunnes always working, Supervalu, LIDL, ALDI hit and miss.

    The rollout of the scheme was a joke, confusion between producers and retailers and re-turn, what was in scope, what wasn't. Barcode needed or not. Products charged deposits but not registered in the scheme so couldn't be returned. LIDL machines needing the caps removed, everybody else saying caps on.
    This is all documented on the thread, unless you're calling posters liars?
    Most of those issues have been rectified, but it should never have been such a mess to begin with.

    Even now, months into the scheme and past the deadline for all products on shelves to have Return logo. And we still see products for sale without the logo. Certain products the machines can be very fussy about such as sub 500ml bottles.

    So 'frothing rage'? No need for that, just read the thread in good faith.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 659 ✭✭✭maik3n


    Putting aside the operation of the scheme for the end user, for a moment.

    It might be too early to get an idear on things but has there been any data provided thus far, to suggest that DRS recycling has a better outcome for our bottles/cans etc versus your standard green recycle bin at home?

    Or do we actually even know what happens with the DRS method?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,346 ✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    From what I can tell, once something goes into either a DRS or for that matter a green bin at home, what happens next is anyones guess. Some does get incinerated. Some gets sent abroad for recycling. There is no data available that I am aware of for percentages.



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