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Deposit return scheme (recycling) - Part 2

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 467 ✭✭Shan Doras


    Another thing I've experienced is shops parking trolleys of stock directly in front of the machine, it would make one go Victor Meldrew



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,485 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    That Indo article was recycled in local papers this week, and I was able to read it. Simon Bourke's friends in the IWMA came up with a genius idea for their members to get their hands on the aliminium:

    "Prior to the advent of the DRS, the Irish Waste Management Association, proposed a system whereby customers using a mobile phone app linked to their bank account, could scan cans and bottles at home, before putting them in their recycling bin."

    Bourke than says: "That clearly made too much sense. It would have negated the need for expensive reverse vending machines to be installed in supermarkets around the country."

    The odd thing is that the IWMA website does not have any information about this plan or about the supposed €15m losses being suffered by their members. Instead they chose a writer of populist polemics to muddy the waters with a nonsense article in the Indo group of papers. I wonder what is going on?

    Bourke mentioned that he never used the machines and continues to support his local waste companies by putting his cans and bottles in his Green Bin. And complains that he will now be penalised with higher charges, because other people have abandoned their loyalty to their companies. He certainly knows how to make a case for his client.

    Post edited by dxhound2005 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,910 ✭✭✭SteM


    'continues to support his local waste companies by putting his cans and bottles in his Green Bin.', ffs. I've read it all now.

    I support my local waste company by paying them every month, is that not the same thing?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,066 ✭✭✭Genghis


    This is exactly right. I go further and say if re-turn are not enabling the exchange of in-scope items for deposits, they are not doing their job. It's simply not their money to withhold.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,789 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    The odd thing is that the IWMA website does not have any information about this plan or about the supposed €15m losses being suffered by their members.

    They were "consulted" and proposed a DDRS, the proposal was extensive and fully costed.

    Has been linked to numerous time here already.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83,708 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    My best overall 'experience' has been in my local Tesco, 4 machines, not yet seen more than 1 out of service at any one time. Worst experience is with Aldi, 2 machines outside the shop, only once seen both machines in working order, they usually put the shutters on them an hour before the shop closes just to make them that bit more useful 🤔.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 946 ✭✭✭bog master


    I ask again, has anyone completed a manual return?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,553 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    No, it seems it's a rule not getting enforced, and no one is calling them out on it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Absolutely. If the bottle is recycled then the deposit should go to the bin company and be used to keep bin charges down. This is a complete no-brainer.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,493 ✭✭✭tohaltuwi


    again o day it here in case anyone finds bottles being rejected. Any dinged looking or rejected bottles should be re-shaped by blowing into them, I have found this works almost every time. Shouldn’t have to be doing that, of course, with this silly scheme.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,569 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Sometimes I find it takes multiple goes before the stupid machine finally concedes and accepts them. It's a wonder no one has smashed a machine yet out of frustration.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,485 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    As per my previous post, just cut out the barcode from deformed bottles and cans and stick them on a good one. I'm assuming that deformed ones are picked off the street, as there is no need for anyone to deform them in the home? Plenty of out of scope empties in good condition around if people need them. Although my experiment with out of shape containers found the machines to be tolerable of significant damage. They certainly do not need to be pristine.

    The only trouble I had with a machine was one of those tiny bottles, which was pristine. Kept coming out and threating to fall into the lip space in a Dunnes machine. So if I had one of those again, I would cut out the barcode and stick it on a bigger bottle.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,910 ✭✭✭SteM


    So if I had one of those again, I would cut out the barcode and stick it on a bigger bottle.

    Try it, I'm 99% certain that won't work. The barcode would have to be used on a bottle that is the same size and weight as the original bottle. It's part of the scanning process.

    The idea of having to cut barcodes and stick them to other containers is farcical. Cans and plastic bottle get deformed at home, when they're empty they have no strength.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,485 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Try it yourself. Swap two barcodes from different size/shape bottles and see what happens. Remove the collars/sleeves and sellotape on only the barcode. The machine only needs to see a barcode. And a shape it expects in general, which is not related to the barcode.

    3.5 Weight Detection
    RVMs are only required to accept empty containers. To identify partially filled or fully filled containers, an RVM
    should use weight detection. This weight detection requires an accuracy of at least 95%. Containers should
    weigh no more than 100 grams including any excess liquid. If a container is identified as not empty, the
    container should be rejected.

    RVM’s must be capable of accepting:
    • With a minimum width of 50mm.
    • With a maximum width of 120mm.
    • With a minimum height of 100mm.
    • With a maximum height of 360mm.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,325 ✭✭✭jj880


    I'll take this as the answer to my question you refused to answer a few weeks back:

    I thought according to you there is no need to make the return process complicated? So now on top of everything else we should have an arts and crafts session to get our deposits back using out of scope containers. 🤣

    Ah would you stop. It's pretty clear you think Re-Turn is acceptable as is.

    1 more time in case you've forgotten:

    Other countries allow IBAN deposit refund

    Other countries accept crushed containers

    Other countries have bulk return centres

    Other countries make all stores who sell containers accept returns

    Other countries dont force people into shops to get their own money back after doing extra work for free

    Other countries' citizens dont already pay for recycle wheelie bins at their homes

    Other countries arent run by idiots / gombeens

    As for the proof of this list you requested it's all in this thread if you go back far enough. I wont be posting it again just for you.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,910 ✭✭✭SteM


    There are apps that generate barcodes and allow you to print them out, you're saying someone could print out a barcode from a 2l bottle, stick it on a 500ml bottle and get a higher deposit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,485 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    I don't know anything about that. Try it yourself and see what happens.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,485 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Thinking further on that barcode generator. People could buy in the North with no deposit and stick on those fraudulent barcodes to the empties. Criminals will always find a way.

    Taking a barcode from a deformed bottle and sticking it on with sellotape to an out of scope bottle certainly works. For instance there are Lucozade bottle from multi packs which have no barcodes. They are the exact size and shape of in scope bottles.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,910 ✭✭✭SteM


    I'm just going by what you said that bottle size didn't matter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,485 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Pickers do a service to the community, and are not despised in other countries like they are here. Except the ones who raid dustbins, if that is happening. I believe other countries have holders on the outside of street bins where people can "donate" their empties to the pickers. I put the crushed bottles and cans in my Green Bin, after transferring the barcode to a good container. Which is a double win for the environment, and will keep up business for my bin company. Although reading the stuff this week, I think they should be paying me for the material.

    Not only do some people not need the 15 or 25 cents. They don't even need the liquid. I found two 2 litre water bottles this morning both almost full. And an unopened can of Pepsi yesterday.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,485 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    You are 99% convinced that I am wrong. I know 100% that I am right. Try it and see what happens.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 946 ✭✭✭bog master


    I believe bottle size does matter tho depends on the machine. My SV reads and accepts the bottle/can and shows on the screen what the bottle/can is, ie; Heineken 500 ml.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,349 ✭✭✭Archeron


    Where is this idea that people picking litter in Ireland are "despised"? In all of the threads that there have been here on this i have never once seen this stated. There seem to be so many mis truths getting randomly inserted into comments.

    any update from Return on disabled and housebound people? Or should they just continue to go fcuk themselves and lose their money?

    I have asked Return directly and amazingly they didnt reply. Even if they somehow didnt discuss this during the public consultation (hahahahaha) they've had six months now to find a fix.

    Anything at all oh glorious thieving Return overlords?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,325 ✭✭✭jj880


    Anything that involves extra work for free seems to be acceptable and doesn't complicate the return of containers.

    Mention something that might make actually help customers get their money back or include an excluded group and the spoof Olympics start or its tumbleweeds.

    Im starting to think we have people in this thread directly connected to Re-Turn.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,867 ✭✭✭lisasimpson


    I ge5 what the poster is referring to. I was crossing a supermarket carpark with returns when it 1st came in and picked up 1on the bottle and some randomer past a comments



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,485 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    And you are the resident ambassador for foreign countries telling us how backward and stupid Irish gombeens are. Some of those countries have had over 20 years to evolve their schemes. Ours is fine for simple people like me. Pay a deposit, get it back from the machine. Or don't bother if you don't need the money.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,325 ✭✭✭jj880


    You hit the nail on the head.

    If you can spare a moment in between cutting out and gluing barcodes tell us your connection to Re-Turn. At least then Id respect your self interest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,422 ✭✭✭Patrick2010


    One benefit for me is I save money on my usual beer which is 7.99 for a 4 pack. No deposit charged but I get 15c back on each when I bring them back. No idea why theres no deposit charged as it has the recycle sympol?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 946 ✭✭✭bog master


    Think of the saving if we didn't have MUP foisted upon us!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,553 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    Many businesses , cafes, restaurants are getting their cans/bottles somewhere without the Return logo, lots of polish cans etc .



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,616 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Further in the Irish Independent, it seems only the promise of compensation from the government is currently holding back bin companies from increasing prices:

    Questioned about the Irish Independent report on Thursday, Green Party junior minister Ossian Smyth told the Dáil that negotiations were under way “to make sure the system of subsidies and levies in place is such that there will be no effect on the cost of waste collection”.“ I do not want the price of waste collection to go up,” he said.Now FOI documents show that on January 30, two days before the DRS began, IWMA spokesman Conor Walsh wrote to the Department with a “gentle reminder” that a letter of assurance that they would be insulated against losses, promised since 2021, was overdue.

    An exchange of emails later in May shows discussions were held and the IWMA provided details of €700,000 in losses from February to April, suggesting a method for payment of a subsidy in compensation.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/bin-firms-were-on-the-brink-of-raising-prices-in-deposit-return-scheme-row/a1463222074.html

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,657 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    What the actual fuck?

    Our government is going to "compensate" private companies because their profits have lessened? What kind of a fucked up world am I living in?

    The sooner we re-nationalise our waste management the better.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,325 ✭✭✭jj880


    Sure Re-Turn is great. No changes needed 🤣.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,814 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    I hadnt realised all caps are now awkward to get off, too much nannying

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,099 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    That should be the way it works for everyone and all DRS schemes.

    Yet some people think that they are getting money back, despite paying the DRS charge.

    I would imagine your retailer will have the DRS charge added in time, but enjoy it while it lasts :)

    Its the fairest way to encourage people to recycle - dont charge them for doing so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,073 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    It would be cheaper to compensate than take it back. It was costing LA a fortune. Nothing to see here Jim just the law of unintended conquences

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,657 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    In the long run, having essential public services under state responsibility makes it both cheaper and better for the public. Hocking off things like that into cartels/monopolies just makes everything more expensive…

    …as we have plainly seen time and time again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,073 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    While the cost may be cheaper to the consumers the state ends up subventing the LA's. When rubbish collection services were privatised the mistake made was that they shoukd have been tendered out for 5-10 year periods lime NCT's. Instead it was left as a free for all.

    LA similar to the public health service do not have the flexibility to run services. Take the use of high tech hospital equipment private heath providers run them for 16+ hours days amd even Saturdays and Sundays.

    Bin companies are similar they run the trucks for 12-14 hour days, they segerate rubbish so as to extract as much recyclables from black and commercial bins where its profitable to do so.

    Eamon Ryan decide to being in a deposit system for bottles and drink cans. These had a commercial value to bin companies. They were bound to lose revenue when this was bought in and if they lose revenue they would increase charges.

    This would have been a double whammy to there customers, these are the people who were recycling plastic bottle and cans anyway and now they were going to have to take the bottles back to the shop as well as pay extra to there bin poroviders

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,657 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Even if there are problems with the state running essential public services (and those problems don't magically go away in the private sector you know), it's always better to keep them under public control. Giving things out to the private sector, like waste, health, water, never works out well in the long run. Government of certain flavours are bound to seek privatisation of public services because it allows them to throw their hands up and say tough shit when those services go wrong or we end up paying through the nose for them because private interests only care about their bottom line.

    In addition, our public health services were much better run when they were under the control of the health boards. When the HSE was created, it set off a series of events that have led to the mess that we see today. It's a bureaucratic disaster and it has been since it was ushered in.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 160 ✭✭The Gardener


    No increases??? Email from Bord na Móna received on Wednesday. Obviously Ossian Smyth hasn't been talking to Bord na Móna.

    "From 1st of July, your Pay by Lift bi-annual service charge will not change. Your Pay by Lift charges will increase by the following amounts: General Waste Bin €1.20 per lift, Recycling bin €0.40 per lift, Organic bin €0.80 per lift, Glass bin €0.40 per lift. As we encourage our customers to recycle more, we would like to highlight that there is a weight limit on the general waste bin. The limit is 195kg for 240lt bins and 105kg for 140lt. Excess kilos over this will be billed quarterly at the cost of 28 cents per additional kilo."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,553 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 946 ✭✭✭bog master


    Have to be a bit cynical here-do we have to be bribed with a gift of a deposit refund to collect litter? Thousands of people including myself have participated in clean up days/schemes and would not think of being compensated!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,660 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    You're not really being all that cynical.

    The likes of you and me and all those thousands of cleaner uppers/litter pickers,while doing our bit, were always a minority.

    A sizeable and hopefully growing minority it must be said through initiatives like Tidy Towns and Spring Clean.

    As you said we never expected payment in any way and just did it out of civic spirit.

    However the way I see it is if the bribe/bonus of getting a little cash attracts more people to join our ranks and help clean up it's a win win.

    Plus I'm not averse to collecting a few euros for my own efforts either 🙂



  • Registered Users Posts: 16 Joebrosaysno


    Out of interest is there a link to a discussion anywhere on the forum related to the negative impact this scheme might have on companies who recycle these bottles and where these bottles in some cases may have made up a considerable portion of their revenue? TIA



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,616 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    If you go back a few pages, you see posts linking to and discussing Irish Independent articles where a figure of €15 million is quoted, and losses of €700,000 a month.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,553 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    Nothing too wrong with system, but for fact there will always be a certain percent never returned, and it adds up to millions that are lining the pockets of those running it, when those millions should be paying for more and more bulk return points, and manual return sites……….. if it is really about returning items, as at the minute it seems to be about making money.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,660 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    They are aiming to collect 90% of all containers sold by 2030.

    I suppose they reckon the other 10% will go missing one way or another.

    I looked it up and posted before about the legal structure of a Not For Profit Company which Re-turn is.

    I can't see any legal means for directors to draw dividends from such a company.

    It's sort of obvious that they want containers returned because they keep saying they want to reach that 90%.

    I agree that bulk return sites would be a good addition. They would divert people with large numbers to return away from the RVMs. This would leave the RVMs for domestic users and reduce delays.



  • Registered Users Posts: 253 ✭✭purplefields


    It is obvious that there are people either directly employed by Return or associated with them posting in this thread. No one is that casually invested in the uptake of this awful regime.

    As mentioned last month, I have boycotted this scheme. There is so much wrong with it. It's almost as if the drinks companies want to keep justifying the use of single use plastic or something.

    Earlier today, it was comforting to see that there does not appear to be much of an impact on the can banks in when I went to recycle my glass bottles. I must confess I did have a few drinks cans to recycle as not everyone in my household has boycotted DRS. What I do now is ensure that I crush each can when I put them into the container, just in case they somehow end up in a DRS machine. I now even deliberately stand on discarded drinks cans (and leave them there) so they can't be used by anyone else for DRS. Before I would throw them into the bin. That's how much I detest DRS.

    Only by non-compliance will we see the end of this scheme.

    I'll give it a year. 18 months, tops.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,066 ✭✭✭Genghis


    I personally have managed to avoid DRS to date but within the house I've seen it creep up, to my annoyance. Even though we are not big consumers of drinks, Re-turn has quietly become part of our shopping routine.

    So we took a trip up north and returned home with just under 200 items that would be in-scope here. Total cost was around £90/ €105. [The cost here, including MUP on some of the items, would be around €170, plus around €29 DRS.]

    So, some welcome savings on the cost of the items themselves, but the true benefit of shopping north is not having to engage with re-turn. The €29 deposit we avoided is not huge money, to be fair; but we have probably 15 weeks worth of beverages now bought, the advantage is we avoid 15 weeks of storing old cans and bottles, carting them back in, finding a machine that works in a shop we want to buy in, all to get €1-2 per weekly visit back.

    Instead, from here until October I know I can simply dump into our blue bin any can or plastic bottle and not worry about DRS. And then plan another trip north.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,073 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Its here to stay just like when it was bought in elsewhere. You need to get a gun to shoot yourself in the foot. This idea of crushing cans and bottles that have a value is stupidity you are handing the system money to run itself.

    Unless you are very bear the border its not an option. You should really be printing off bar codes to collect the DRS.

    Slava Ukrainii



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