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Deposit return scheme (recycling) - Part 2

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Yoy are paying extra for the product, i agree.

    Even if you return the bottles and cans, you are still paying extra for the product.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,622 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Privatisation definitely complicates the matter.

    It means the department is negotiating with the Irish Waste Management Association instead of just issuing a circular to local authorities.

    The bin companies should not be allowed to recoup any claimed losses caused by Government legislation from consumers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,348 ✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    Actually, I kind of wish they would use that approach for a few more important things. Privatise the Gardai and we might finally get some Law and Order in the country. Lets disband the army and instead hire about a thousand ex-Navy Seal security Contractors.

    Makes sense, no?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,754 ✭✭✭Phil.x


    Every time (two times) I go to my local dunnes I have to try and get someone to fix the machines, plus they are located in a car park which has become a local tipping ground because of these two machines. Green tax con.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 942 ✭✭✭bog master


    Bin companies are entitled to raise their prices if an income stream that they had previously is now severely depleted because of government legislation.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,622 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    It's almost as if you're making the case for the guys who are out to shaft you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 942 ✭✭✭bog master


    I understand business. I have to live with a monopoly where I live. But I have compared their prices to others in surrounding areas and they are competitive. As one in earlier life running and owning a business I can appreciate their situation. For a number of years their prices have reflected collecting a certain amount of aluminum to recycle. Now, through a gov't quango and legislation that amount of aluminium will be vastly reduced. Repack was aware of this and noted it would be an adverse effect on their business. So, pisses me off to have to pay more, but I understand their situation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,622 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    This isn't a normal business.

    How long are you willing to pay them for not collecting the recyclables you now have to take to an RVM or lose the deposit ?

    I know you don't like DRS, you've said it often enough here, so why would you volunteer to pay as well ?

    Understanding is generally a good trait but I think you might be overdoing it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,289 ✭✭✭jj880


    You and a few others have that well covered in this thread.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,328 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    A bit rich from you considering you've done nothing but make the case for the scam. Which is 100% people out to shaft us, ie: the Government and Re-Scam. Double shafted really, because now we're getting increased bills from the private companies due to government interference. I don't want increased bin bills, but like most people in this country we don't have a choice, as it's a single company who does it in each area.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,622 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Funny how threads turn out.

    Months of railing against DRS which is a simple refundable deposit and costing most users nothing.

    Then suddenly the bin companies who want to take actual money out of your accounts for an indeterminate amount of time for not collecting stuff are the good guys.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,328 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Who said they're the good guys? You're putting words in our mouths. There's no good guys. Ever. There's money grabbing, and we're getting screwed from both sides. DRS is the reason the bin companies are upping their prices, of which we have NO choice. And saying DRS costs us nothing is just plain false. However, it's quite obvious at this stage there's no discussion with you, DRS is great. I'm out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,440 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    'Suddenly'?

    Nothing sudden about it. The bin companies warned about it during the consultation... again after the scheme went live, submissions and contacts to the Minister and Department. True or false? You are aware of all of this arent you?

    So thats not even trying to give an accurate account of the situation. You have been reading the thread so ignorance is no defence. Funny? Yeah funny how some posters will go to bat for Return with blatant falsehoods.

    DRS is the reason the bin companies need / want to increase charges and therefore looks like costing consumers money - even if they return 100% of items.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,449 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Read what Mary Lou, Brid Smith and the Taoiseach said in the Dail. Whatever changes have happened in bin charges recently can't be linked to DRS. Because the companies are still in consultation with the other parties involved. One of which might be inclined not to renew the permit of a company which goes rogue. Permits last five years. The whole lot of them went rogue already, with that piece in the paper designed to frighten us about higher charges.

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2024-07-02/4/

    (Taoiseach)

    On the specific issues, we do need to have an evidence base here rather than just accept what a waste company, with the greatest respect to it, or any other organisation says. The charges applied by waste management companies are managed by those companies but they are subject to compliance with relevant legislation, including contract and consumer legislation. It is a condition of the permits under which waste collectors operate to charge fees that respect the polluter-pays principle and to incentivise the segregation of waste. The National Waste Collection Permit Office has responsibility for issuing all waste collection permits and it is now engaging on this matter, including in respect of some of the information or the charges or suggestions being put forward by the companies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,440 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    What on earth are you on about?

    Didnt you earlier on the thread post information that one of Returns category sources of funding was the sale of recyclables?

    And werent bin companies previously the ones getting revenue from selling those same recyclables?

    So how can you post with any credibility that whats going on in bin charges cant be linked to DRS?

    Not every company is in the umbrella group and not every company can afford to 'eat' the lost revenue indefinitely while being fobbed off by the Minister / Gov.

    The Government went rogue when they ran a fake consultation and a letter of assurance they are now refusing to honour.

    From the Irish Independent:

    Now FOI documents show that on January 30, two days before the DRS began, IWMA spokesman Conor Walsh wrote to the Department with a “gentle reminder” that a letter of assurance that they would be insulated against losses, promised since 2021, was overdue.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,183 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    In your last paragraph you suggest subvention by the government. If the bin companies get that no price increase to customers would be necessary.

    Do you have a feeling that government subvention is going to come in from some money trees from Jack Chambers back garden?

    What you suggest essentially means that there will be very little if any of increase in recycling as what was done by bin companies is just being done by re-turn so we switched Peter for Paul. Not to mention that there is feeling that Peter robs Paul and Peter wants his money back and he is getting it from us or the government (where government is again just us anyway).

    All this scheme managed is to create another quango with hefty salaries for the boys and couple more jobs. But even that jobs increase may be only temporary as there may be some jobs gone from bin companies as they may see a bit decreased workload because of re-turn getting what used to be their piece of a pie.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 942 ✭✭✭bog master


    I disagree that DRS is a simple deposit scheme at all. It is a scheme beset with problems, as evidence of this thread and further complicates a reasonably good system of kerbside collection of waste and recyclable products. The old system needed tweaking yes, but not replacement. And, I find your comment ludicrous that it cost most people nothing. Waste collection prices have gone up which has been predicted and highlighted on this thread for several months. I value my time and now I have to sort and bring to a collection point certain recyclables and hope the said machine is working.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,183 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    You constantly fail to grasp basic things which somehow do not surprise me because that seems to be common trait for a lot of the people in green movement.

    You are stuck in your world of paying for not collecting recyclables and refuse to realize that bin company collect everything. That is why you pay them - to haul away stuff you do not want.

    Up until now they were able to subsidize disposing of unwanted stuff by sorting it and getting something back for valuable stuff which we even put in separate bins for them. It all adds up and result in smaller price you pay while they as a business were able to make some profit. At the end of the day you do not work for free yourself either.

    Re-turn took this income stream from them so in order to function they need to cover it with something else and since the only choice they have is to charge more for service they provide that is precisely what they will do.

    If you are so convinced about infallibility of your logic then go ahead and just cancel the contract, keep your rubbish since you do not wish to pay the charges and let us know how it turned out for you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,449 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    They don't take unwanted stuff. They have a list of wanted stuff which is allowed. Everything else is unwanted and not allowed. I made no agreement with them to supply any particular amount of items on the wanted list. So far they have not increased my price since DRS, although it has gone up over the years.

    Do you have the figures for how much profit they are making from the "valuable" stuff? Would they still be in profit from the big whack of money I and my neighbours are giving them, regardless of what we put in our bins? If they would still be in profit, there is no need for a price increase. As the Taoiseach said, he will not just take their word for it, he wants evidence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,622 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    No disrespect intended but if it's ok with everyone I'll just make a general reply due to time constraints this morning. I will get back to the thread later.

    On the bin companies.

    1 I don't accept that the bin companies should charge their customers extra due to the loss of recyclables. Consumers are already co-operating with DRS and putting up with varying levels of inconvenience. That is their contribution.

    2 The loss of recyclables is caused by the new DRS legislation which has been brought in to ensure that we reach EU targets.

    3 Overall responsibility for reaching the targets lies with the Government. The bin companies and Re-turn are both part of the same industry that the Government relies on to deliver sustainable waste management.

    4 Currently negotiations are addressing the bin companies claim for compensation for loss of recyclables.

    5 Some form of re-balancing by way of subsidy is the most likely outcome. This is not unusual when Government is relying on the commercial world to deliver public policy outcomes.

    On Re-turn.

    I am not an uncritical supporter of Re-turn. I have been posting on the scheme in all the threads because I am interested in the area of sustainability.

    I accept that some posters will never be reconciled to the concept.

    However I personally can't see any other way to reach the target of 90% by 2030. I don't think green bin collection will do it.

    In conclusion I represent only myself here and all opinions expressed are my own. I am happy to correct any mistakes.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,440 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The presence of absence of such an agreement is irrelevant, and has no standing. As long as they increase as per what is permitted in contract or at next renewal, these "notional" agreements people have in their heads are neither here nor there.

    They should produce some figures, they will have it from their accounts showing the income received from recyclables re-sale. The figure quoted in news reports for the umbrella group for waste companies as a whole was €15 million. That gives us a ballpark figure for the purposes of discussion.

    The Government could also ask Re-turn what is the value of the recyclables they are re-selling.
    It is obviously a significant sum in question, or it would not be listed as one of the categories of Re-turn funding.

    And it is not just merely a case of staying 'in profit'. All companies will have an expected margin, and this is an expected factor in e.g. government tenders also. Such a margin is also important for continuing to raise funding.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,604 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Stating a fact isn't necessarily making a case for someone or something. it's merely stating a fact.

    And the fact of the matter, which has been put to you time and again, is that a private business concern is allowed to raise their prices if they are deemed to be insufficient to keep their profit margins within the realm of what they want them to be, so long as no laws are broken, and Thorntons, Greyhound, Citi-bin, et al bumping up their prices by a few quid isn't breaking the law.

    The consumer is on the hook to private firms now for their waste collection and in many cases they are at the mercy of a single or perhaps two options. Both of which are usually a Hobson's choice. There is no real competition when you basically have a cartel operating what is essentially a monopoly, which is what our waste management is these days. And you end up with prices only going up and never down, which is what a real market is supposed to look like.

    The problem here, aside from the fact that we hocked our bin collection into private hands in the first place, is that Re-Turn have caused a serious ripple with their entry into this faux market with regards to the knock on affects in the profits of companies already making bank on waste (and make no mistake they are in it for the money regardless of what case you might make for them shafting you and us) and it was a ripple they would have factored into their business case. And if they didn't factor it in, then they have no business being involved at all.

    This DRS nonsense has been an absolute mess from the beginning and no amount of excuses will alter that, with the end result being that the man in the street ends up paying more for less and corporatism wins out over the public good once again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,183 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    You are another one who cant put two and two together. Bin collecting company is taking stuff you do not want and you pay them for the privilege of not having a smelly mound in your back garden. Or front of the house whatever you prefer also depends on the wind. They supplied green bin for you so you can decrease amount they charge you for everything you chuck in black bin. If you feel so cheated that you have to do the work for them you can freely dispose of everything in a black bin but be prepared to pay some more than you were used to. They do separate content of black bins to some degree but a lot of stuff is contaminated so it ends up in incinerator or a landfill.

    Since re-turn took what used to help to cover black bin disposal plus bin company wages operating costs and profit someone else has to pay for it. It is going to be you. Either directly in form of increased charges or indirectly in form of government subsidy which will come from your taxes anyway.

    This reasoning of:

    I made no agreement with them to supply any particular amount of items on the wanted list.

    reminds me of certain "sovereign citizens" type of reasoning which would be pure entertainment if it would not be actually sad to listen.

    Same advice I gave to the other poster apply to you. Stand your ground, do not suffer increased charges since you never agreed to supply them with your precious cans. Cancel the service and tell them to take a hike.

    Let us know how do you deal with the stuff you did not want before but figured you are not obliged to supply to anyone anymore. I suspect that neighbors would not be very sympathetic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,449 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    You said they take wanted and unwanted stuff. They only take wanted stuff. If they don't want it they don't take it like glass bottles. I have no doubt that if someone diverted other materials like paper from their system, they would have launched a poor mouth media campaign against that as well. Don't get taken in by this carry on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,440 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    If it is a poor mouth campaign, if the waste companies weren't getting revenue from the resale well then…

    Re-turn can have no objection to the revenues from sale of Aluminium recyclables being diverted into a fund to compensate waste companies.

    Seems like there'd be no revenue to divert?

    Call their bluff.

    Simple.

    Don't get taken in by this carry on by Re-turn, playing the poor mouth that they need the revenue, if it's so insignificant.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,622 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Like I said earlier this bin companies compensation issue has a bit more to run.

    I've outlined my position on it several times now.

    I agree with you that privatising an essential public service hasn't worked out well.

    If we did away with DRS in the morning how would we go about reaching the EU targets?

    I agree with you that consumers shouldn't have to pay more as well as having to comply with DRS to get their deposits back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,604 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    We can certainly do away with this Re-Turn bullshit in the morning and institute something better. Something that isn't just about a company making money off of the back of inconveniencing the public and pretending to be interested in hitting "targets".

    As I said earlier, a much, MUCH, better approach to this was to put bins on the street or in shops and buildings that would accept any PET bottle or aluminium can without the need for an over priced "deposit" or silly exclusive barcodes. This would have allowed people to dispose of their cans of coke or water or whatever that they've bought while they're walking around on a given day. It also keeps the old way whereby people can put their used cans and bottles that they bulk buy into their green bin at home.

    Of course the problem with that approach is that a private company won't be making bank out of it. And THAT is what this shit is ultimately all about.

    Post edited by Tony EH on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,042 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    What a load if BS. We do know if we put bins in the street that some people will put there ordinary rubbish in them. As well a lot of the dumping of can and bottles is in the countryside. We can hardly have a bin every 50 meters. Go to any football or soccer match or any public event and even though there's plenty of bins lads still chuck them on the ground. F@@ker will not clean up after themselves on the beach either.

    Other countries have prooven that the deposit return scheme works. I let you into a little secret it here to stay whether you like it or not and no amount of whinging and whining will change it.

    The private companies doing it will not be making any money except on the bottle and cans if EVERYONE RETURNS EVERY BOTTLE AND CAN.

    But there is lazy whining f@@ker who at the slightest alteration to anything are in for a whinge.

    Look recycling is not a zero sum game even if these bins did work there would be a cost to empty and maintain them. It seems that PET bottle are significantly more recyclable if they are not contaminated by other rubish or recycleable.

    Post edited by Bass Reeves on

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 702 ✭✭✭rodders999


    Just back from the shop after bringing my big bag of bottles/cans back to the machine - a whopping €12 bounty for me!

    Only problem was the voucher must have fallen out of my pocket somewhere around the aisles because when I got to the till it had vanished.

    Horsing bags of bottles back to the machine I can live with, but that stupid paper voucher and redeeming it for cash or money off your purchase is archaic.

    Yeah it’s my own dumb fault for losing the voucher in the shop but why I can’t hold my phone up to the screen and have the money returned to my account via an app
    or whatever is mental.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,604 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,042 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    One of the advantages of using a bit of cash and having a wallet

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,042 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    I am quite calm dear

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,622 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    I doubt that adding on street bins to the green bin collection system would give us the result we need.

    Re-turn is a not for profit company.

    Nobody can draw dividends from a not for profit company.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Guards generally arrest offenders pretty swiftly. Its the judicial system that lets serial offenders walk free.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    So why didnt the govt build the cost of the DRS into the price of the product, instead of adding it as an extra cost, does anyone know?

    There would be a lot less complaining and people being hit by stealth charges at the till, if the deposit charge was an actual deposit, rather than an additional charge.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,440 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Someone has taken all the labels off 2l own brand dunnes sparkling water in my local... gonna slip them onto ineligible bottles no doubt.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭SteM




  • Registered Users Posts: 702 ✭✭✭rodders999


    Yeah true. The advent of paying by phone means I now never bring my wallet out with me anymore when there was a time I’d never pass the front door without it.

    Lesson learned today, I’ll bring it with me next time I’m going to machine…or at the very least a something with zipped pockets 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,183 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Yet plenty of lads can and do draw hefty sallaries. Useless quango but that is no surprise. It seems to be our way to reward chosen few.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 942 ✭✭✭bog master


    Who is paying the CEO's salary? Is he doing the job not for profit? Who is paying those who sit on the board of directors?

    Are they doing it not for profit?

    What are their salaries? Oops, ReTurn will not even give the Minister those figures!

    The board of directors, made of whom? Retailers and manufacturers who are not going to make decisions that will impact on their own businesses.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,348 ✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    I am so f##king sick of this "It a not for profit".

    As you say, the CEO is not doing it out of the goodness of his heart. When they hit the targets that they came up with themselves, the CEO will still get his bonus. He can sell his car, because the not for proft will give him a company car.

    When not researching more efficient recycling methods, ReScam employees can enjoy yoga sessions in the office, paid for by my unclaimed 15 cent. But it's ok, because its not for profit.

    RTE is a not for profit too, which is why an uneducated gombeen like Joe Duffy earns 400k a year. And before anyone says "Oh but he brings in advertising revenue for RTE", yeah, but RTE still have to go to the government every year for a topup because they squander that revenue on flipflops.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,622 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Well we don't know how hefty but yes they get paid.

    Presumably they have bills, mortgages etc. to pay like everyone else.

    And it's not a quango.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,622 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Of course his salary comes out of the companies income.

    The directors are already receiving salaries from the companies they work for.

    Do you think they are getting inflated fees or expenses from Re-turn ?

    The board have already made decisions which impact on their businesses but some of the suggested improvements like bulk machines are slow coming.

    Maybe a few civil servants or consumer reps would make a difference.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,803 ✭✭✭✭thesandeman


    I'm against the DRS but it's NOT a stealth charge that hits you at the till. The price of the deposit is written in front of you on the shelf. Most of the supermarkets even say on their radio ads that it's extra.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,348 ✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    No its not a stealth tax. It's a very overt tax.

    "But you get your money back!

    Unless it is not feasible for you to go get your deposit back, then it's just a tax to fund a brand new quango that no-one wanted in the first place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    Not in all places. Plenty of charges arent listed at the shelf.

    Maybe thats the retailer not complying with the rules, but it still happens.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams


    You dont get your money back.

    You get a portion of your money back, if you return the product to a DRS machine. But even then, you dont get all your money back because the cost of the product has increased by the value of the deposit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,348 ✭✭✭LambshankRedemption


    Sure, when they finally turn up 4 hours after the crime was committed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭BlueSkyDreams




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,310 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    Ireland the home of nothing else. Some countries have industry, some have big IT sectors. Ireland🤨



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