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DF Commission Report

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,098 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    I don't like seeing the increasing number of articles like this but unfortunately it's needed. It's the fact we don't even do the bare minimum which is hard to understand.

    I think it will take an event to radically change things. Sabotage of infrastructure most likely. I think there is a kick up the hole coming.

    Another possibility and one I think is most likely is that NATO countries may intentionally and publicly refuse to help Irish citizens the next time our government goes thumbing lifts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,167 ✭✭✭sparky42


    To be fair, its the Telegraph, if it isn't the state of our capabilities then its our foreign policies, or tax or something…

    I mean the powers that be, both in Dublin and the Western nations know exactly how incapable we are, and our unwillingness to change that. The Telegraph having a go won't change that, but I always have wondered why when the agreement with the UK was signed and ever since why there was no attempt to make us pay even a portion of the costs whether that was for the RAF rescue operations over the decades or for the possibility of protecting us over the same period?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,789 ✭✭✭roadmaster




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 902 ✭✭✭vswr


    Will these integrate into the DMR system, or is this completely separate?

    Spotted the job looking for contractors for this work a few months back….was on a UK ex-mil jobsite… said "must" have military experience :-D I'm sure there'll be loads of people who would be happy hearing a load of ex-UK mil are setting up and Irish tactical system.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,167 ✭✭✭sparky42


    well they handle most of our security needs and loads of people are happy with that…



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 902 ✭✭✭vswr


    the "secret" partnership that keeps on giving !



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Ah well...every little helps!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,789 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    By the sounds of things we will have a very young Defence leadership when the COS is gone as who he leaves behind will be getting the blame.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/taoiseach-simon-harris-crotty-ogorman-serious-questions-for-the-defence-forces-re-the-handling-of-abuse-cases-6418343-Jun2024/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,807 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The very best thing An Taoiseach Nua could do, is to appoint a standalone Minister for Defence to Cabinet, and stop bleating about the symptoms.

    There is so, so much to be done in reform and expansion, one half Minister and one half junior Minister is entirely insufficient.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,789 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    An the Jnr Minister has zero role or imput in to the defence forces which makes it worse.

    By the sounds of simon harris fake outrage sean clancy is a lucky man he is heading for Brussells or he could have got a P45



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,807 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    This stuff is hardly Clancy's doing. Its the immovable blob of 60 years of archaic and prejudicial policies.

    There's a Head of Transformation there now and all of this will fall under his remit to reform, with the new CHoD and the government.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,789 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    It may not be his fault but he is the boss and the government are looking for some one to blame. An i see in the media this morning the report that clancy was to deliver last night didnt happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,167 ✭✭✭sparky42


    well of course they are, they can’t attack the judge, so the DF is the best target, particularly as it can’t defend itself in anyway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,789 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Yip its always easier to blame a person/Group that cant speak back in order to get a few good headlines.

    Maybe this will actually help to speed up the new command and control system and leadership roles. The CoS is already refering to the Air Corps as the Air Force.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,789 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    So according to the detailed Plan next month the new Command and Control system will be confirmed with new service heads and HQs. Will Sean Clancy get to be the 1st CHOD are will they wait until he is gone?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,807 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    You can be certain they'll wait. Makes no sense to install a CHoD and endow them with all those powers and responsibilities only to be gone in 5 months or whatever.

    I'm sure the departing CoS will aid the transition in whatever way he can until he leaves.

    Also nothing happens in this Country during July and August, so the above steps will probably happen in the Autumn. Just before the general election in all likelihood, which I have money on to be 25th October.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,789 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I dont know the kicking the government are giving the defence forces at the moment it could happen in the next month so they can say look at what we done.

    we the government seen the problem acted quickly and solved it.

    They will say they have cleared out all the problems and have put a new system in place. It would be an easy win for them going in to the summer break.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,167 ✭✭✭sparky42


    nah, I think they will just keep kicking at this point, it’s a nice way for them to avoid having to do anything, and clearly Harris is enjoying it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,793 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Ireland would simply have to do more from a military perspective. This is regardless whether the country at some point joins NATO or not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,789 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    An there you go the easy summer win for the government. Just shows what can be done when it benfits the government.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41426767.html



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,807 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    How is it an easy win?

    All the memo to Cabinet does is get approval (or not) for the DRAFTING of the new Defence Bill to enable these changes to happen.

    There's not a snowballs chance of the new structures being anywhere near in place for another 12 months.

    In fact, with an election to take place, probably in October, that legislation won't even begin (else it fall with end of the Dáil anyway) until 2025.

    And even then, if Sinn Féin enter government in some form, it probably won't happen at all.

    So make it 24 months. Or never.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 120 ✭✭irishrgr


    This has the look of "some body do something", the classic mistaking activity for progress. While it's good to get this moving, I'm sure between summer recess and whatever else comes up in politics, it'll move down the legislative calendar. Agree with above, it'll be kicked into next year.

    However, the Crotty affair is shining some light on places that need it. It seems there is no mechanism for the DF to know a servicemember has been convicted, and there is no duty to report under current legislation. All this consternation about "serving members with convictions" and yet commanders have no authority to suspend someone, and no lawful way to know if they are convicted or have any other barring order. CoS even said re-vetting the entire force would be nearly impossible.

    I'm hoping there will be good from this, but if history is a guide, it'll be slow and painful with such a narrow scope to be meaningless.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,807 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Well the DPP has now formally appealed the leniency of the sentence imposed by the criminal court, which automatically puts a stop to any Defence Forces action to dismiss him.

    They will only be able to do so, once criminal proceedings have ended fully, with no prospect of further interventions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,167 ✭✭✭sparky42




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,789 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Latest Update. DOD SecGen remains accounting officer.

    Government Approves New High-Level Command and Control Arrangements for the Defence Forces

    The Tánaiste and Minister for Defence, Micheál Martin TD, today (July 2) received Government approval to prepare the necessary legislation to provide for the reform of high-level Command and Control of the Defence Forces.

    The reforms will reflect recommendations made by the Commission on the Defence Forces (CoDF) including the creation of a new position of Chief of Defence (CHoD) as well as a Vice Chief of Defence and Service Chiefs for land, air and sea – Army, Air Force and Navy.

    This will ensure parity of esteem across the three services and is in line with international norms. It will modernise and transform how our Defence Forces operate and will be key to how Ireland manages its defence strategy.

    Welcoming today’s Government approval, the Tánaiste said: “Since becoming Minister for Defence, it has been my priority to drive forward with the changes needed to modernise our Defence Forces. The current legislation around how our Defence Forces are structured is simply not fit for purpose so I will bring forward reforms to bring it in line with the recommendations made in the Commission on the Defence Forces and also with international norms. This one of a range of measures introduced in the last 12 months that will fundamentally change our Defence Forces going forward.”

    Responding to today’s Government decision, the Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces, Lieutenant General Seán Clancy said, “I welcome today’s approval by Government of the Tánaiste’s proposal to modernise the Defence Forces command and control structures. The creation of a Chief of Defence appointment is a pivotal step in modernising our Force. These reforms were recommended by the Commission on the Defence Forces, and I am confident that they will strengthen our strategic capabilities and operational effectiveness, ensuring we are better positioned to meet the evolving security threats of the future.”

    As outlined in the CoDF, a new command and control structure will be introduced over time. The will include the dissolution of the current two Deputy Chief of Staff posts and their replacement by the three Service Chiefs as well as a Joint Force Commander.

    In addition to the military positions, there are currently two Assistant Secretary positions as part of the Defence Board, as Heads of Strategic HR and Transformation. This new management structure will ensure that there is strong governance, accountability and transparency in terms of how the Defence Forces operate.

    Ends.

    Notes for Editors

    • Control of the military by a civilian, elected Executive is a fundamental principle of all western democracies. This principle has served the State well and the new structures will reinforce it, with the Minister for Defence retaining the right to command the Defence Forces on behalf of the Government. While this command shall be exercised through the CHOD, the Minister will retain the right of direct access to the Service Chiefs.

    • The Constitutional role of the President of Ireland as Supreme Commander of the Irish Defence Forces remains unchanged by these proposals.

    • The Tánaiste’s proposal to proceed with these recommendations follows extensive work on governance and oversight arrangements, which is significant, complex and sensitive and involves a fundamental review of the current regulatory framework governing the relationship between the Minister for Defence, the Defence Forces and the Department of Defence.

    • The Secretary General of the Department of Defence remains as Accounting Officer.

    • The four recommendations of the Commission on the Defence Forces (CoDF) related to reform of high-level Command and Control encompass the following:

    1. The creation of a Chief of Defence (CHoD), supported by a Vice CHoD, with the appropriate military command and control authority of the Defence Forces at the strategic level;

    2. The creation of a Defence Forces’ Headquarters that will report to the CHoD, who will be assisted by the A/CHoD and the Head of Transformation;

    3. The creation of three Service Chiefs, and Deputy Service Chiefs, for the land, air and maritime forces, and a Joint Force Commander, who should also be the Vice-CHoD, supported by a Deputy Commander.

    4. The Army, Air Corps and Naval Service should become services, have service headquarters, and have parity of esteem.

    • The new legislation will make the appropriate statutory amendments, in particular to the Defence Act 1954 and to the Defence (Amendment) Act 1998, in line with recommendations by the Commission on the Defence Forces in order to:

    o give the Minister for Defence power to delegate Command to the newly created post of Chief of Defence (CHoD) as head of the Defence Forces;

    o affirm and enhance governance structures managing the defence of the State;

    o reconfigure the high level structure of the Defence Forces; and

    o amend the Defence Act 1954 so as to dissolve the Council of Defence

    • The Council of Defence was established by the Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924 and currently exists on the basis of the Defence Act 1954. The Council is composed of the Minister for Defence (Chair), Minister of State at the Department of Defence, Chief of Staff, Deputy Chief of Staff (Ops), Deputy Chief of Staff (Sp) and the Secretary General of the Department of Defence. There hasn’t been a requirement for a formal convening of the Council since 1987. In view of the other mechanisms that have been put in place in the meantime, it is considered prudent now to dissolve the Council of Defence.

    • Pursuant to Article 13.4 of Bunreacht na hÉireann, “The supreme command of the Defence Forces is hereby vested in the President.” Under the Defence Act 1954, military command is exercised by the Government through the Minister for Defence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,167 ✭✭✭sparky42


    So the DOD Sec General remains the boss, so will this have any significant change?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,789 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The potential new CHOD is just entering leaving cert year

    If you dont control your own budget how can you really be in charge. I taught the CHOD would have the accounting officer just like it is in AGS



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,167 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Martin suggested that the changes to the Triple Lock legislation won't be done till September, so if there is an October election will it die as well?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,807 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The Dáil has approved participation in Critical Seabed Infrastructure Protection under PESCO.

    Fair play to Minister Martin for this response

    Screenshot_20240703_223923_Chrome.jpg


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Was it connelly who tabled that daft question t"other day about a 900 metre ship?



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