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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,902 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    They're good stats though to be fair no one is suggesting Coombes should be ahead of Doris. It backs up what I'd think on yhe eye test though. He just lacks a bit of explosiveness

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    Yeah, I get that, but I think what they show are even stylistically he's such a different type of player to Doris, and Doris is clearly the style of #8 that they want and the skillset they value.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,918 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    Coombes played a significant amount of time at lock and is the go to ball carrier 2 metres from the line for Munster which will skew his metres per carry down significantly. Coombes has the most successful carries of any URC player this season with 115. He is one of only two players to get over the century.

    If we are to use your metrics from above, Hodnett would be statistically the best back row in the country at 3.7 metres per carry, 91% tackle success rate, 7 clean breaks and a defender beaten every 3.5 carries.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,495 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    You can't carry more than 2m when you're 1m from the line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,014 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I'd also suggest that, off our own lineout, Coombes is invariably in the maul. Whereas Doris occasionally lines up in midfield as a carrier off first phase.

    It's getting the best out of their respective talents, but it's going to have some impact on raw carrying stats.

    Similarly, the number of times they carry within 5m. I'd wager Coombes carries much more frequently in those positions than Doris.

    It's going to have some divergent impact on the stats.

    The final point is, I don't think anyone is arguing he should be ahead of Doris.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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  • Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    Well, as it happens, I do think Hodnett is a very good player, and is a guy who ought to feel more aggrieved than Gavin Coombes at his continued exclusion. Unlike Coombes, who has had multiple opportunities, I don't think Hodnett has had anything except the EI tour.

    I do think Munster use him quite differently to how Ireland use the 7 shirt - Hodnett actually does carry a lot in the wider channels, but I would have liked to see him in the squad here.



  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This is entirely true but also a problem. Imo it skews too much that way. The barrier to entry is too high.



  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    1 Porter

    2 Keenan

    3 Beirne

    4 Furlong

    5 JGP

    6 Sheehan

    7 Aki

    8 Doris

    9 Crowley

    10 Hanson

    After that its a bit much of a muchness



  • Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    I don't disagree with some of the reasoning, but there were multiple posts here post squad announcement all saying something along the lines of:

    His stats are unreal but he's not getting a look in for Ireland

    his stats are very impressive even with starting from the bench

     Anyway, it's all moot, I don't think he can have done much more to be honest, if it was a player from another team posting those kind of stats I'd wager their fans would be saying the same.

    But now, there are multiple posts for people trying to rationalise my piece where I illustrated that the much vaunted stats aren't actually that impressive at all.

    Maybe it is the case that Munster overuse him as a carrier, and as a result we don't see his best side there, but constantly claiming him to be a really strong carrier doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I pulled the same numbers together for Nick Timoney, for comparison, and while he played 151 fewer minutes than Coombes, he too outcarried him in terms of metres. He had 87 fewer carries, but 281 more metres, so his average is 4.3m per carry. In short, on average over the course of the season the average Nick Timoney carry is more than twice as effective as the average Gavin Coombes carry.

    As a tackler, he also has a 91% tackle success percentage, and only a slightly lower quantum of tackles (16 fewer).

    So - the people who are saying Gavin Coombes is unlucky "because the stats etc" are just wrong, and aren't looking at the whole picture.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,918 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    But he had by far the most successful carries in the league this season with 115, nearly double Nick Timmony's total of 73. As you intimated yourself, a 5 metre run in the loose on the halfway line can be less valuable than a 2 meter carry on an opposition line. Modified stats like this provided by the URC can help to give a better picture. I don't think you can say he doesn't have good stats when he leads two categories (carries and successful carries) and is 3rd in another (total tackles) on the URC's stats home page.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    It won't matter what stats are reasons are put forward. People have decided Coombes should be in the squad and any number of reasons have been pulled out over the years as to why he isn't, bias etc etc

    I personally still don't get the accusations of bias and all sorts for the Irish Management team. Farrell has come from outside the Irish game, the only link he has with a province was a short coaching trip with Munster. From what I can see he picks on form and players who he thinks will fit into his planning.

    As I posted earlier today, the dropping of Ross and Harry Byrne was a bigger surprise to me, both with more caps and Ross was critical part of the Grand Slam. Yet not much of a whisper. Harry has played probably his best season in terms of games and against top opposition, also stayed injury free. Ross also had good games this season and the final v Toulouse his performance wasn't any better or worse than Ntamack but both have been dropped out of the squad.

    Also the 10 is an area which has significantly more question marks over it since Sexton retired. Yet not much discussion

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Alessandro Vast Numskull


    I dont think the stats are the point per se but when its said hes good enough people say hes not. When he has big carry stats people dispute them. Its difficult to point blank show how good a player is unless he wins a world cup and even then people shrug

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Dropping harry and ross reminds me of when he dropped carberry. I don't actually see any big drop in form with any of them. They are all essentially the same as they always were.

    To me its insane that prendergast is in this team over harry byrne. And doubly so over ross.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    I think Predergast is going for the experience and not to actually play, I can't see him getting minutes. Maybe Farrell is looking towards the future and decided it would be better to bring Predergast instead of a Harry/Ross who won't get minutes

    If the plan is to play 6-2 because Hansen is out and Keenan is gone then Frawley on bench makes sense

    I like Predergast, he is a talent and he has played well this season but better to Harry or Ross? not for me.

    Who knows, Farrell won't fly in injury cover I expect so if something happens to a player then Predergast will bump up, or maybe he knows them all out in training and gets minutes, it is a huge ask for a young kid but best of luck to him



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Winning a WC medal doesn't automatically make the player better than other players from other countries in the same position.

    Are you saying DuPont isn't the best 9 in the World because he doesn't have a WC medal?

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,014 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    100% agree with this.

    Metres per carry stats are obviously important, but in an attritional game like rugby, volume also matters. In other words, carrying at a lower volume doesn't mean you'd still have the same metres per carry if it was ramped up to the same volume.

    Fwiw, I think Coombes had a better season last year than this, but for me, he's always passed both the stat test and the eye test.

    I see similarities with McCloskey tbh. Incredibly good for his Province, but on the outside internationally. Once he eventually got an opportunity, he showed he was more than capable. If Coombes got a chance, I think he could do similar to what McCloskey in green showed last season (and I was delighted for him tbh. Absolutely class player).



  • Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    I have absolutely no idea the basis for what the URC deem a "successful" carry, they don't explain the methodology or reasoning anywhere (that I can find). Another significant limitation of those numbers is they omit the players who haven't played a certain amount of games.

    The numbers I've provided are based on the entire seasons for these players, across all competitions.

    People keep using the 2m carry on opposition line thing - but it's worth noting Nick Timoney scored 5 tries more than Coombes this season too (12 v 7).

    His tackling stats are good, but nothing out of the ordinary - Doris had more tackles this season at virtually the same effectiveness and Timoney had ever so slightly less at the same effectiveness. I've already made the point that the sheer volume of carries isn't an impressive stat when the average carry is so low. He would be better served carrying less tbh and carrying more effectively.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    He is not in the team yet. He is 3rd choice outhalf on a summer tour.

    Barring an injury Sam may not play a minute.

    Ross was at the World cup. Harry was in the 6 nations squad. The coaches know what they can do and what they can't do.

    It's a great opportunity to have an proper look a Sam and maybe better use of a 3rd choice outhalf position than Ross or Harry.



  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    He's still one injury from playing. They should have taken ross as well in that case.

    Throwing Prendergast into an actual game on this tour would be imo mental. So, hopefully they do have people ready to fly in.



  • Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    No, that isn't accurate.

    There were multiple posts claiming his stats were amazing, and justified his inclusion.

    It's not "disputing" stats to actually look at them and see the real numbers. I delved into those stats and you see they actually aren't that impressive, certainly not as a carrier by comparison to Caelan Doris, who had far more impressive carrying stats and against tougher opposition on average too.

    If anything - the stats to me are a perfect illustration of why Munster fans feel he should be in the team and why he actually isn't in the team.

    He has high volumes which increase his prominence, but the actual output is at best mediocre.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,083 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Don't think anyone is disputing the URC stats, just how much they really mean for international selection. Like, the top performers in almost every category have one thing in common - none of them are front-line test players.

    Why? Because these are the ones who play more URC matches, while the test players feature less and so rack up lower numbers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,685 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    Our depth at loose head is very, very worrying .

    Don't know Porters minutes this season but I imagine he plays on average 65+ per game

    Don't think he can keep that up season after season, we need to strike lucky with our youth system and fast



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,854 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    The thing I'm more intrigued about is what on earth happens if Doris gets injured? Are we really going to play Timoney or Prendergast at 8? Guys who, although having played at 8 at club level, are more suited to flanker especially at an international level.

    The curveball move in that situation would be Beirne to 8, but I don't see that happening given he hasn't played there since he's Scarlets days and the fact we're only bringing three out and out locks anyways.



  • Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    I think it would be Timoney - he's mostly played at 8 this season. His last 14 games have been at 8, and of 20 starts this season, 17 have been at 8.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,854 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    Yeah it's an interesting one. I always thought Farrell viewed him as a JVDF style 7. His three Irish caps to date have been at 7 (twice starting and once replacing JVDF off the bench) - as was his Ireland XV appearance against the Maori - but I'd still probably put him at 8 over Prendergast or Beirne if it came down to it.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 1,345 ✭✭✭ Benjamin Cold Sorbet


    Yeah, I liked Beirne at 8 back in his Scarlets days, but don't think he has the dynamism for it anymore.

    Cian Prendergast was picked at 8 in a RWC warm-up last year, and started twice for Connacht there during the year but don't think it's his best position. With this squad, I think if Doris was hurt it would almost certainly be Timoney to 8, and Timoney may well sit on the bench in the 20 shirt, given he can do a job across all three backrow positions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,083 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    I don't think Farrell gets too bothered about numbers in the back row, Doris has moved to 7 on multiple occasions. I would say any of Timoney, Prendergast or even Baird would play 8 if needed.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,902 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I suspect Farrell would be happier with Prendergast getting the minutes than Byrne in that scenario to be honest. There is no way they will fly anyone in to take his place if it comes to it.

    I think he has just decided that neither are what he wants at international level. When he decides that he can be quite ruthless at looking for other options.

    I don't understand why people think it would be so bad for Prenderfast to have to play.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,559 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I think it has become fairly clear over the years that a players general form in the URC doesn't really matter (unless they're playing really badly).

    What matters to the selectors is how you play in the big games, namely the interpros (when you are often playing against the players you are competing for a spot with) and Euro games.

    To use Coombes as an example again, I distinctly remember him travelling to Ravenhill before Christmas and Dave McCann played him off the park. It may feel a long time ago to us fans but I'd bet it's a data point that is still relevant to the Ireland coaches.



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  • Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't think he is remotely ready for test match rugby and that can damage a player if played too soon.



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