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Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,560 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Plenty of things up north, such as the Good Friday Agreement but not down here as they have always been in opposition. So while they have been supporters of things like womens rights and gay rights it is fair to say small things like proposing referendums don't really come into the scope

    Likewise they haven't created the housing and health crises that we are currently living through. They had a lot of good ideas around the last recession like taxing those who had money more than those who didn't but again being in opposition they couldn't get it through



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,288 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The fact that they are the biggest party on the island of Ireland is because of their legacy. Yes they were heavily involved in a conflict/war as were the founders of FF FG, the British etc.
    The reason they are the biggest party now is because of what they were involved in achieving for Irish people. They reward them for that, just as other parties are rewarded. I also think they have a fairly consistent legacy in calling the government to account/scrutinising legislation etc. The duty and function of an an opposition in a republic despite the fact some here would like no opposition.

    And they have made mistakes too, nobody is denying that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,128 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    The Good Friday Agreement was an international agreement between two governments, brokered by John Hume. There are about twenty people who can claim it as a legacy ahead of anyone from SF.

    Maybe you could list the "achievements" of SF.

    You could include some examples from their time in charge of Dublin City Council.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,128 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Being the biggest or the most popular party on this island does not translate into achieving anything tangible.

    Nobody is able to list Sinn Fein's achievements.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,068 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    People unfortunately die in war. The IRA made mistakes, certainly, did things that were in hindsight regrettable but the very very most were enemy combatants, circa 70%, an unheard of rate.

    Either way, it is nearly 30 years ago, to most of the electorate it is ancient history.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,288 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Or…John Hume made several attempts at brokering a solution and failed and it was only when he went on a solo run from his party, the SDLP and created an initiative called the Hume-Adams initiative that a workable solution was found.

    The people of NI and indeed many here reward, not the SDLP but SF for what they achieved in negotiations. You may see 'no legacy' but they certainly do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,560 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Well councils by their nature are pretty quiet and don't have much power to change things but if I was to list achievements of Dublin City Council they did fly the palestinian flag over city hall last december and they did pass a motion to protect libraries from anti-LGBTQ+ protests. I'm not sure if they have much control over hospitals but I'd rather be in St James's than in UHL if I was sick.

    So bad that you'd be fearful of getting sick because of what the hospital might do to you. That's the FFG legacy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,547 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    There's quite the leap of logic to claim that Sinn Féin's electoral performance 20-25 years after the GFA is because of their perceived role in the peace process.

    In the election immediately after the GFA - the one that would be most likely influenced by the various parties' roles in the peace process - UUP and SDLP were the two largest parties.

    After that, both communities pivoted towards the hardliners and we saw the rise of the DUP and SF which dominated the next 20 years of NI politics.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,288 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The GFA wasn't done the day it was signed blackwhite. There was a lot of water yet to flow under that bridge. Not least the reforms it ushered in.
    You are entitled to your opinion that they have no legacy of achievement but as their growth shows, that is just an opinion, a curmudgeonly and rather bitter opinion at that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,547 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Amazing how you state your opinion as fact - and then throw abuse at anyone who dares express a different opinion. Classy guy



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,288 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Wrong again.
    I gave an alternate view/opinion of what blanch had an opinion on. The function of the word 'or' here.

    Or…John Hume made several attempts at brokering a solution and failed and it was only when he went on a solo run from his party, the SDLP and created an initiative called the Hume-Adams initiative that a workable solution was found.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,547 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Why lie when anyone can see it just a few posts above?


    The people of NI and indeed many here reward,not the SDLP but SF for what they achieved in negotiations. You may see 'no legacy' but they certainly do.

    Statement of fact. As usual the gospel according to Francie and then throw abuse at anyone who dares to question it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,288 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    What abuse?
    I give my opinion in every post, if I am stating facts I will back them up with links.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,128 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I am talking about the period from 2014 to 2019 when Sinn Fein, together with a motley crew of left-wing independents controlled Dublin City Council, the period when the city fell apart.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,128 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Correct, when you look back, the period around the time of the GFA can be seen as an oasis of peace and reconiliation. The middle ground was winning. Unfortunately, since then, the rhetoric of the sectarian parties has drowned out that middle ground and the resurgence of SF and the DUP are emblematic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,128 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    And in those 30 years, Sinn Fein haven't a single political achievement to speak of.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,288 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


     the period around the time of the GFA can be seen as an oasis of peace 

    Wow, just wow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,804 ✭✭✭mikethecop


    are you asserting that sf haven't been involved in crime and criminality in the last 30 years ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Finty Lemon


    The rise of SF and the rise of the DUP, in my opinion, can be traced back to the St Andrews agreement and the adjustment to the procedures on electing a first minister.

    It had the effect of hollowing out the centre ground, which was a predictable and understandable development given the condition of both communities in NI.

    IIt has little to do with achievement of either party, but more a mutual response to fear and hatred of the other side.

    St Andrews was a bad development for politics in NI. I



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,288 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


     more a mutual response to fear and hatred of the other side.

    So this only developed after an international agreement was signed?

    What was bad about St Andrew's?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,350 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    some sf supporters are gonna be very very upset if this doesnt go in their favour on the day, and thats the way its looking!



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    This is quite a simplistic narrative. Would appeal to the bar stool crowd.

    Yes we did bail out the banks. The final figure was about 30 billion once shares were sold.

    Our national debt went to about 200 billion. Thus only about 15% of that debt was due to the banks

    The rest was because of the collapse of the housing market and industry as a revenue stream.

    Joe bar fly thinks we could have kept racking up debt and Europe should keep paying for us.

    They did a deal. The trokia. It was terribly unfair but only an idiot would think we'd have gotten away with no cut backs

    That there was a magical printing press for money.

    The current housing crisis is a spin off of the collapse.

    FG failed to plan ahead by not realising the population was still growing.

    However you have to keep in mind that in 2011 the growth rate for 2016 was projected to be 2.5%

    In the end it was 6.5%

    Our economy bounced back a lot quicker than expected further driving growth further

    I might still vote SF but not because of a bullshit narrative that the banks caused all the austerity



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,288 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I doubt it.

    SF seem to be good at playing the long game.
    They'll be happy with the changes in Irish politics they are forcing to happen. It's part of their legacy too. The nonsense sham of civil war politics over for good.



  • Site Banned Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭Bobtheman


    At some point SF will say sorry for the violence. It will be too late for the dead. I think the IRA killed more catholics than even the British.

    I'm not denying the initial violence wasn't justified. It went on way too long.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,288 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    It wasn't the Olympics Bob.

    You didn't win if you killed more of one type.

    Conflicts/wars once they are allowed begin have a time worn habit of dragging tragically on.

    What makes the one here all the more tragic was the fact that the conditions to prevent it could have been delivered by those responsible for stable society at any time since partition.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,560 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Oh did the city fall apart? I missed that completely, in fact the city only a few weeks ago was very much intact so what are you actually on about?

    Is it true that SF applied the full 15% discount that they could to the property tax that the residents pay in their time or was that just a rumour?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,560 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Generally speaking, at the time of the recession the general public had to cut back a lot more than the high earners did. Thats down to govt policy, not necessarily the banks. Yes the banks got away with a lot and even today the banks don't pay tax on profits due to some crazy revenue law that the govt don't want to change. Again govt policy is at fault here. But then if you look after the super rich that donate to the party while you get your ministerial pension, sure how bad eh?

    And what political parties do we need to thank for it all?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Finty Lemon


    No not at all, clearly the mutual fear and hatred pre-dated St Andrews. The GFA had careful mechanisms to counterbalance this, having constructed in effect three-elections-in-one (between and within unionism/nationalism/other). St Andrew's, at the behest of the DUP and SF negotiators, diluted the format and moved to a straight shoot-out for the first minster role based on largest party. Of course, that brought about what might be considered a more standard electoral scenario but in my view the move was premature given the aforementioned tensions on the ground. Since then, the DUP's biggest electoral weapon has been SF, and SF's best asset has been the DUP. The ultimate power-swap if you will.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,288 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    This is a narrative that isn’t based on the actual facts.

    SF had been creeping up electorally on the SDLP for quite some time and simply overtook them when the GFA was achieved. And make no mistake, nationalists and republicans and others saw it as an achievement. The SDLP repudiated Hume when he liased with Adams and that still has an effect on their vote.

    What happened in Unionism was wholly different. The DUP tried to destroy the GFA and major figures in the UUP defected to them. Bur once they got the upper electoral hand Never Never Never was quietly forgotten and the Chuckle Brothers were born. Remains to be seen if they get away with the same capitulation over the Protocol and sea border.
    St Andrew’s didn’t change the fundamentals of the GFA either.
    I think though the GFA needs agreed reforms in certain places though.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Finty Lemon


    St Andrews fundamentally changed the GFA because it radically altered how the first minister is elected.

    Section 16c Part 6.

    Without St Andrews in place, Michelle O'Neill would not be in the first minister role today based on the 2022 election results.



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