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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭ToweringPerformance


    Horrible to see these Russian gains. Easily preventable if not for ridiculously cowardly western leadership the last year or so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    What if they let the Russians into Kharkiv after it's turned into a fortress and killing zone? A Stailingrad to trap the Russians in door to door fighting?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,468 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Another man who will be trying his best to stay away from windows for the next while.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,854 ✭✭✭zv2


    Don't tell me he threw a bottle of vodka at the drone…

    It looks like history is starting up again.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,653 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Different, yes, but you can get to an interesting philosophical question there when you start talking about national interest for both countries. What would happen if, for example, not only did Ukraine actually ask for Ireland to return the personnel, but backed it up by stating that Ireland would be deprioritised in trade deals compared to other nations in the future? Right now, the aid Ireland is providing towards winning the conflict is as near to zero as makes little difference, so Ukraine has little to lose in that context. The people Ireland is hosting are probably more valuable to Ukraine than anything else Ireland can provide, unless Ireland decides to hand over a bunch of its (surprisingly large) anti tank weapons holdings. Ireland provides sanctuary to Ukrainians so that they aren't refugees (or even just displaced people who are still able to work) in Ukraine but over 500km from the conflict zone. When there was a serious fear that Ukraine would be overrun, accepting all the refugees was understandable, necessarily done in a hurry with little refinement and appreciated by Ukraine. But even without any threats or unpleasantness, is it still in Ireland's interest to host Ukrainians even when Ukraine doesn't need (or want) them to?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    You are talking about ukraine so those are not rumours.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,960 ✭✭✭Hande hoche!


    There were discussions of various recruitment efforts in Latin America. These would be incorporated into Ukraine's Foreign legion. Difficult to get any information given the secrecy and the level of disinformation floating around.

    As regards the migrants, imagine morale would be an issue to be bluntly cold about it. Various NGO groups would have a melt down over it. Also would play into the Russian propaganda effort.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,653 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I doubt the citizens of Kharkhiv would appreciate it. Look at how many civilians are killed in the relatively uneven battle for Groznyy. If people think that 30,000 is a lot of civilian casualties in Gaza over six months, they'll be in for an eye opener .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    That was a Czech graft. They promised million of shells if they collect enough of donations. Just a move for empty insignificant suits to get their 5 minutes of fame and some little money on the side.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    There's a dirty element to all this and I see it mentioned in Europe too.

    Henceforth anyway. There'd be no luck in expelling people fleeing their own country from invasion while people from the invading country can walk around trouble free. If any Ukrainian be expected to go back and fight. Then any Russian should also be expected to leave and fight for Ukraine.

    And all this because we don't actually want western soldiers in Ukraine.

    We'd have RT presenters howling for western soldiers to go to Ukraine just so their sons can stay in London or Dublin.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭zerosquared


    They can melt all they want and Russian propaganda already insist anyone but Ukrainians are fighting them as they are at war with NATO yada yada and it’s difficult for them to admit that so many of them are being killed by mere Ukrainians.

    There are plenty of positions in a modern military that don’t require being at the front line, tip of the spear sort of speak, I am sure plenty of help needed for example in logistics and repair.

    Being paid (and other benefits) and getting citizenship is not too different to what already happens for example in US military (where service is a well trodden path to citizenship) I am fairly sure that would be a more attractive option than being sent back to your country or … Rwanda

    But anyways none of that matters without bullets and ammo and training



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    I'm sure they wouldn't. It may not be their choice in any case if the Russians make it to the city.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭zerosquared


    Good point, why are Russians still allowed into Europe?


    There was an article today about how there are Russian nuclear technicians still working in Germany on their plants, I mean if that doesn’t ring alarm bells what will



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    You can talk and compare economy size as much as you want. In this case it is irrelevant.

    To illustrate imagine western economy as a fancy penthouse apartments with top of the notch kitchen when russian is just a small farmhouse out in the sticks. It sure look that way, however, while your kitchen may be top notch you cant cook a meal before you go out and buy all ingredients you need. Not to mention you will have to hire someone who can cook it for you since you forgot how to do it yourself. There was quite a big arms industry in Czechoslovakia for example but it got dismantled, sold off and liquidated right after colour revolution as it was in direct competition with the usa. All of that skilled personnel left, schools closed and factories crumbled. This was the case with all ex-eastern bloc countries and I bet that they are now feeling sorry that happened.

    That farmhouse out there is much better off as it sits on farmland which provide all they need and in abundance.

    There are very little minerals left to exploit and use in the west which are needed for arms production and some of the most crucial needed are being sourced from china. A lot of green red tape will have to be dismantled in order to restart any remaining mining industry and even then it will take a years to accomplish. Not to mention that arms production is energy heavy and solar or wind are not going to cut it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,671 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Lol. How can the Czech's profit off it exactly? Only people I could (conceivably) see profiting (dishonestly) are countries that get money and then don't deliver or deliver rubbish.

    You are quite the cynic with a pretty diseased view of the world. Everyone is on the take eh, everyone is dirty and "grafting". Very Russian, to nationally stereotype.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭zerosquared


    You do realise that likes of Rheinmetal are building factories in Ukraine itself right?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Another day. Another arms dump.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    If you think that refugees who run away from conflicts in their own country would find it more attractive to be enlisted and fight in another country military conflict then good luck to you. Not to mention that 9 out of 10 refugees are actually economic migrants I seriously doubt they would find Bakhmut more appealing than Rwanda no matter how much would you offer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,909 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Philosophical scenarios aside, I think there is zero chance something like this happens for a couple of reasons:

    1. No western country would send men, against their will, to a country where they're going to be conscripted (It's one of the reasons why migrants don't get send back to Eritrea). Even if the politicians decided to do it, it would almost certainly be blocked in the courts.
    2. It wouldn't be in Ukraine's interest from a PR point of view to make veiled threats against EU member nations. Zelensky understands this kind of thing innately and has been very successful in that area. Trying to strong-arm countries into doing something that large portions of their public would find morally unconscionable would be a sure-fire way to permanently burn any support they have in those countries.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭zerosquared


    The fact that thousands are willingly going to fight for Russia for much less and will not live long enough to gain Russian citizenship never mind enjoy their roubles is a direct counterpoint to your post.

    If someone is an economic migrant then make it clear their choices are be sent back or hey what about this economic and citizenship opportunity here.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Oh sorry I had no idea you are full of holy spirit living in a land of unicorns and fairies.

    They introduced this scheme where they posed as intermediaries. Wanting to collect money supposedly knowing where supplies are and even claimed they can procure that amount. Guess what happened? When they were pressed into revealing sellers or directly connect buyer with sellers suddenly there was nowhere near what was promised so very little money fell in that trap.

    Explain to me how intermediary profit in any business if standard definition of intermediary is diseased view in your opinion.

    Everyone who can including ukrainians are trying to profit from this conflict. It was illustrated time and again like when us decided not to build tank repair shops in poland because what poles asked for it was beyond ridiculous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭Deub


    It will be my last reply on this topic. You said you asked the same question than the OP and you were “censored”. I was just pointing out you didn’t ask that question. Your point was totally different.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,579 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,854 ✭✭✭zv2


    @zerosquared "The fact that thousands are willingly going to fight for Russia"

    Most of them are convinced they are natural born drone dodgers.

    It looks like history is starting up again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,308 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Russia is producing around 3 million shells per year (it has it's own looming issues with maintaining that level of production). It's military is centered around artillery.

    Europe, which has been asleep since WW2, has woken up slightly, and current projections are for shell production to increase to around 2 million per year by end of next year.

    The US is on target for 1.2 million shells per year next summer (est. up to 100k per month, tripling current production)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭zerosquared


    *Russia “claims” to produce 3 million shells a year



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,478 ✭✭✭yagan


    I really do wonder how much Russia has left in the tank (pardon the pun), but since footage of troops making their way to the front on scrambler bikes and unarmoured dessert cross vehicles you do wonder if all they've left is belief.

    The saying goes every army is ready for the last war, and it seems that Russia was prepared for a war from the last century when borders were drawn by where tanks stopped rolling. They're having multi million dollar tanks being destroyed by $50 grenades dropped from drones adapted from the type of drone kits you'd get in the middle isle of aldi/lidl.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,810 ✭✭✭threeball


    I'd say the economist that replaced him is more likely to meet his demise than Shoigu. He'll be blamed for failure of the war due to his cutbacks and they'll off him. Shoigu will be feathering Putins nest from elsewhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,671 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Well you would say I am an idealist from your perspective! Almost anyone would be I think going by your "output" on here.

    It is not a normal business deal though is it? It is not comparable to what was going on with that tank maintenance facility in Poland either. The Czechs are more of a diplomatic itermediary here I think.

    If the shells don't come there will be no money paid I assume. Even if they do come I think we'd need more specifics on how the grafting/thieving Czechs profit from it (other than potentially helping Ukraine survive, hard to value but definitely worth something to the Czech govt.?)

    If the shells do materialise, you are never going to get some kind of offical confirmation of names of all of these countries/details of what is going on. They don't want to anger Russia. That is the whole point of all this obscurity around it. In addition I would say Russia would be working overtime trying to persuade any country with shells who is neutral to either stay out of this "scheme", or preferably, if they can be fired from Russia's guns, to supply them to their military instead!

    How in the hell do Ukrainians "profit" off having the Russian army f-ck up their country and murder their people? That is quite some statement, and a real headscratcher.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,240 ✭✭✭selectamatic


    Ay Russian's have a great "farm" surely. It's just they need contractors to actually farm it.

    Without western help, infrastructure and technology in refineries and gas extraction, piping and advanced mining techniques they'll have to turn even more to China.

    The Chinese won't be making that a remotely fair deal for Russia though. They'll fillet the Russian economy and leave the Russian's with a few crumbs.

    It'll make western petrol chemical arrangements/development look like charity by comparison.



This discussion has been closed.
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