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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    don't know if this is the right thread but these look pretty swanky



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,808 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    is 2025 a bit optimistic? when are deliveries going to start?



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,890 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Based on how long it took the CRR to allow the 22000 centre cars in, if they were delivered tomorrow I'd not be certain of 2026…



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,642 ✭✭✭Economics101


    THe UK Rail Industry Association has published a paper on electrification. One of the big takeaways is that UK electrification has been a series of feasts and famines, with huge problems as skills are dissipated between big projscts such as WCML, ECLM and GWR electrification, whereas Germany has a steady flow of relatively modest projects and a steady employment for the appropriate skills. (I don't have the link. The RAI is an industrial lobby group, but they appear to speak sense on this.) The lessons for Irish Rail are obvious. Have a pipeline of projects and implement them in sequence depending on funding, etc.

    However, we have the Irish planning system.😎 This will no doubt stymie almost anything.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,317 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six


    Trains expected to start arriving at the end of the year. Drivers already being trained up for them, big work going on in Inchicore at the moment for facilities to commission them, and paths for testing being worked out.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13 Crakepottle?


    Anyone know when the Dart South West is getting underway ?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Would it be possible for the Gov to exempt O/H electrification from planning? Afterall, what is gained by planning?

    While they are at it, dualling an existing single track line could also be made exempt.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    OHLE involves construction of substations and supporting pylons, it creates a permanent visual change, and it reduces the permitted road vehicle height at level crossings. Any one of those would require planning.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    There is already a limit to vehicle height, but bridge strikes still occur.

    Not all pylons require planning.

    Surely, just consider the substations that ESB use - do they need PP for each one? PP could be an issue for the LA, not ABP.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,890 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Substations need permission; and most are a lot smaller than than what OHLE needs.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    Crank up the cranks with their cut and paste objections!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Anyone is allowed to object. Nobody is obliged to do anything about such objections, though, and if you ever read a planning decision you'll see that a lot of objections are basically quoted and then ignored.

    The planning process does often highlight legitimate problems with a plan, and most times the plan is modified slightly to accommodate that and everyone is happy. This is why we have it.

    What has given the process a bad name is people who have successfully exploited the process to block projects they disapprove of. In the long run, though, even these people do some good, as they cause the system to be improved so that it becomes less vulnerable to their tactics.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,642 ✭✭✭Economics101


    God, Europe would never have managed to electrify most of its railways if it had to contend with planning Irish-style. Modern 25kv masts are relatively lightweight an unobtrusive, but I wonder at the rcent very clunky studd recently installed on the Great Western main line in the UK.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭VonLuck


    Is there somewhere (either a post or webpage) with an up-to-date timeline of when everything Dart+ related will commence and finish? I'm sure it is posted semi-regularly in this thread but it's impossible to find when you go searching!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    No need for pessimism. I was only saying that the idea we could override the planning process just because it's a railway is a non-starter. (Not least because letting a government suspend laws to get its "plans" implemented isn't a great idea..)

    That doesn't mean the thing will get bogged down. It will all be happening on private land, and the substations etc will be located in areas that already have buildings in place. You'll get a crank or two complaining about the view, but they'll be ignored. One or two people will have legitimate complaints and the plan will be adjusted to accommodate them. All business as usual. But the likes of FIE will have no grounds to obstruct this, as the land is already taken and in any case electrification will remove the pollution associated with diesel fuelled trains and allow some of our most heavily used railway servives to run on renewable energy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,286 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    West and South west are awaiting a railway order while they also work on the detailed design for the Maynooth depot. They've recieved tenders for a delivery partner and are reviewing those tenders whith a view to awarding in may/june. Once the RO is granted, they'll start their internal works within weeks of that date. Internal works include track lowering to fit wires under bridges.

    There's an 8 week period after getting an RO in which a judicial review can be launched. It seems likely that at least 1 land owner will seek a judicial review, although the process has been extremely robust so the high court are unlikely to accept it, but again you never know, lots of judges fancy themselves as engineers/planners. If there is no JR in that period IÉ will immediately begin detailed site investigation.

    Coastal Morth is aiming to submit an RO application this summer.

    Coastal South is scrapped effectively, to be revisited at a future date or broken into 2 or more projects.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,147 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Coastal North was ready in December. Read into that what you like



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I am not suggesting planning does not apply to railways, but the extraordinary long time for planning needs to be tackled or all construction will cease.

    We have LA planning, ABP, the JR system all of which can take years and years. It only takes one crank to cause this type of delay at huge cost to the project. We now have objectors who only object to blackmail the development.

    This has to be reformed or replaced.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,302 ✭✭✭Consonata


    Coastal South being scrapped is very disappointing. If we're pulling Rosslare services, at the very least we should be working to improving frequency on that line.



  • Registered Users Posts: 402 ✭✭Reversal


    Is there any sort of expected date for the decision on the W and SW RO's?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,808 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    The expectation is that something will be done with Bray-Greystones and Dart will be extended to Wicklow using battery trains. What's being long-fingered is the level-crossing closures as they're too contentious and would bog the other bits of the project down.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,286 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Unfortunately this is one of the great mysteries of the universe. Other countries have strict planning deadlines which can only be extended under exceptional circumstances. In Ireland its a black hole about which we have no certainty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    LA planning doesn't apply to projects that are big enough to go straight to ABP. This is one.

    The ability of complainers to instigate JR proceedings has been greatly restricted in the new planning acts.

    But mostly our issues with planning are not a problem of what planning law allows, but of understaffing at ABP. Hopefully this has been resolved.

    There's a temptation to use Metrolink as a benchmark, and yes, Metrolink has taken ages, but Metrolink is a far larger project, building a completely new railwat on new land-take and under existing buildings... there's potential for huge impacts if it goes wrong, so the detailed consultation process is to be expected.

    DART+, though, takes place almost entirely on lands already owned by IÉ, and so almost no land take or loss of access is involved. Even the environmental cost is tiny compared to the emissions saved by electrification. All of this means it should clear the planning process much more quickly.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    How long has planning taken with the closure of the level crossings on the Cork line? Surely that is a very simple project.

    Just to keep Dart on topic, the Merrion Gates needs to be closed. There appears to be no active plan to do this, despite one being proposed as part of a cycle based project. If the plan had been built, the one at Sydney Parade might have been possible to be closed as well.

    The planning system is killing any infrastructure projects. Sounds like the old 'elf and safety' or 'insurance' excuses.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,286 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    There are just too many friendly judges who would approve a jr against level crossing closure in D4. The only outcome at this point is for IÉ to close the crossings for 16 hours a day and provide no pedestrian or cyclist alternative.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,356 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    ABP will have had the Cork Line Level Crossings project for 3 years should it fail to make a decision before 20 May.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    This is beyond ridiculous. As Sam states, "it is a very simple project". The public consultation took place in 2019 and plans were modified subsequently. The railway order was applied for in 2021 with the oral hearing scheduled for Sept 2022. By agreement with ABP an EIA procedure was conducted in advance. And pretty much nothing since. The status of the case on the ABP website is "Requires Further Consideration". A straightforward project, re-routing roads, constructing a small number of bridges etc. Greatly improving safety for both road and rail users, improving the rail journey time between Cork-Dublin and Cork-Limerick and underpinning those services for the future. Sure there is some inconvenience for local traffic which was aired during the public consultation, and some alterations were made to retain connectivity, convenience etc. But overall a simple project, hugely grounded in the common good, that didn't appear to generate much hostility or opposition. It really shows-up the lip service to public transport in official circles that this is allowed to languish. If ever there was a case for ministerial intervention to get the ball rolling this has to be it.

    And if it is so tortuously difficult to get this simple project over the line, what chance is there for Merrion Gates, where the opposition is a lot more vocal, vociferous, well healed, well resourced and any worthwhile solution considerable more complicated and impactful. Having spent many hours in the past sat in a queue of traffic on Strand Road and Merrion Road waiting for the barriers to rise it's absolutely ludicrous that this isn't tackled.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Interestingly the Deutsche Bahn regularly opts not to electrify stretches not because of planning rules per se but because if the Bahn makes a "substantial change" to an existing line (like electrification) then the local authorities (representing the residents) can effectively force the Bahn to install sound barriers which dramatically increase the price of any scheme. This is a primary reason why much of the south ring in Berlin remains un-electrified and essentially freight only, despite it passing through very densely populated areas. The entire line would require sound barriers…..for quieter electric trains. It's not just in Ireland that bizarre planning rules mean these cases crop up.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The opposition to the Merrion Gates was to do with the bus lane and cycle lane restricting parking and taking some of the front gardens.

    The plan was to have Strand Road turn right just before the CTT building and cross a bridge from their carpark to the Church carpark the other side of the railway. The traffic would then get to Merrion Road via a T junction, presumably controlled by lights. Some details needed sorting, like ambulances etc but otherwise a good solution. I would have preferred an underpass - less visually intrusive, and less disruptive to the rail service.

    The whole project was not standalone and was attached to another project for whatever reason.

    No word about it since.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,974 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Railjournal.com had a detailed piece last year about DART+ which included timelines. I know they're all up in the air but I'll repeat them for reference.

    DART+ W: PP expected spring 2024. Contruct Jan 2025, open Dec 2028. €1.5B

    DART+ SW: PP expected summer 2024. Construct April 2025, open July 2029. €1B

    DART+ N: No date for PP submission. Construct March 2026, open Dec 2029. €600M

    DART+ S: Descoped. Scaled down RO by Nov 2025 (not sure if this will happen at all now).



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