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Leinster Team Talk Thread (Love you Furlong time)

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Ouch



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,426 ✭✭✭FrannoFan


    NIQ lock moves out, NIQ lock in

    NIQ center out, NIQ center in

    It's probably private money financing it (plenty of Leinster fans with deep pockets willing to pay up in the past but it's like ethos prevented it happening)

    It's great to get top tier quality in but it's not really a position of need.

    if we don't get a good tight head to replace allatoa it will actually leave Leinster looking pretty foolish.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    It isnt as simple as that though - we dont know the sums.

    We don't know how much money Leinster have available and how much the different options cost.

    Leinster can also only deal with what is on the market and who they can get approval for. TH is a specialised position so I doubt we'd get approval to sign a Barrett level talent.

    I'd rather my team take gambles like this, especially when they do not impact us long term, than sitting on our hands and dealing with the hurt of just falling short. Even when you lose at least you know you did everything possible to try to win.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    Yeah, but do they make more money because they get more from the IRFU, or do they get more from the IRFU because they make more money?

    It's a bit of a chicken/egg scenario, and it's hardly surprising or unwarranted that other provinces feel aggrieved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    Leinster have put close to 100k people into stadium in a week. Im sure IRFU are making money out of it



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    That doesn't really answer my point though. Have they gotten this far into the competition because of the support they get from the IRFU, or are they getting additional support from the IRFU as reward for getting this far in the competition?

    Do you think Munster or Ulster wouldn't have drawn a similar crowd if they had a Heineken Cup QR in the Aviva or PUC (in Munsters case).

    I'm not doubting that Leinster make money. I'm just wondering whether signings like this are the reason or the reward.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Bleyendaal

    Synman

    De Allende

    Du Toit

    Marshall

    Cloete

    Botha

    Nankivell

    BJ Botha

    Grobler

    Te Aiha

    Mathewson

    Saili

    Jenkins

    Taute

    Fekitoa

    Haley

    Gallagher

    Du Preez

    Van Heever

    Stander

    Chisholm

    Guinazu

    Amorisino

    I'm sure I've missed a few but it's not like munster have not been allowed sign player's from overseas in the last 10-12 years, yes some short term, some project player's etc



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    Thanks!


    Lenihan said ulster, munster and leinster had budgets of around 8 million each. If you assume that excludes centrals (kind of the only way it makes sense) then leinster are over 10.7 currently and way over next year.

    There are obviously nuances to this concerning how much would be match fees instead and so but i doubt the french clubs are super interested in those nuances.

    It seems at the same time Ulster and Munster are cutting down from 8 million.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    They all have academies, if it was based on rewards do you think Leinster would have Jenkins?

    Please note I think Jenkins has done a good job so not slagging him off



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Leinster are in a position to hire a 2 time World Cup winning coach, ROG would have some very stiff competition for that job.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Regarding revenue, how many home knockout games have Leinster earned over the last few seasons compared to the other provinces? They are huge earners.

    Regarding spend, how many top tier NIQ signings have Leinster made compared to other provinces over the last few years? Even Connacht have signed a top tier NIQ more recently than Leinster have.

    The IRFU approach to central contracts is definitely a help, so I can understand Connacht and Ulster fans being disgruntled.

    Munster however had the vast majority of the central contracts during their peak years and I remember zero calls from their fans for those central contracts to be shared around with other provinces, that Munster players should be forced to transfer to other provinces against their will, that Munster should be blocked from signing some of the best players in the world as NIQs during that period, or that the IRFU shouldn't take money that could have gone to other provinces and spend it on them redeveloping their stadium. Munster neglected the goose that laid the golden egg and it died - now are crying because Leinster wont share theirs with them. They might feel aggrieved but they have very little reason to given their history.



  • Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭moonshy2022


    Now that’s a post.

    I’m sure you’ve missed a good few, but Ulster can’t complain either, they’ve had a huge list of imports as well. Munsters list of imports is ridiculous and then to have the cheek to complain. How many of Munsters big buy ins were private money, how many of Ulsters were funded by Rory McIlroy ?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Munster however had the vast majority of the central contracts during their peak years

    I'm curious if anyone has resources / data on the history of the central contracts.

    Cos I don't think it's ever been as lopsided as it is now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,792 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    Munster would have drawn a massive crowd for a knock out game if they didn't lose to 14 men Northampton at home and draw with Bayonne's u20s.

    There's a lot of moaning but very little inward looking going on down there.

    I actually did post a few months ago that the poor health of the other provinces may eventually have an impact on Leinster - the CC situation will surely change



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    I'm pretty sure Munster had 8 at one point.

    I'd say that its lopsided now but lopsided for a reason. Leinster produced most of the elite players.

    What's different now are relatively small things that are stacking on top of each other. Farrell is more willing to go down depth charts for one so its less necessary to move to start. That's one. Another is that you are allowed less NIQs and not in some areas so its harder to reinforce obvious weak spots in squads.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Munster had basically the full Irish 1-10 for years.

    It was absolutely as lopsided and then they were bringing in some of the best players in the world like Cullen, Howlett, de Villiers etc to supplement them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Horan, Flannery, Hayes, OConnell, O'Callaghan, Wallace, Leamy, Stringer, ROG, Quinlan, Mick ODriscoll

    They all were in the squads (regular-ish in some cases) in the noughties. No idea who was on CC but I think therein lies the problem. Munster have a crop of good players coming through (Casey, Ahern, Hodnett, Coombes, Kendellen, Daly for example) but they have a lot of great players up the road in Dublin ahead of them in the national team pecking order

    A prime example is Joe McCarthy v Ahern. Munster have deployed Ahern at 6 (with Coombes in the 2nd row) and while he has had some highlight reel moments out wide is it going to do him any favours when it comes to getting picked for Ireland?



  • Administrators Posts: 54,256 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    how many of Ulsters were funded by Rory McIlroy

    Zero.

    This was just internet gossip, it never happened.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Wasn't it the case that there was significantly more central contracts in those days tho? Closer to 20+, right?

    Genuinely curious if anyone has any sources on this?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    Its more likely to be baird vs ahern. Maybe edogbo vs mccarthy, which could be interesting if he can stay healthy.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Yeah I get that but does AF view Ahern as a 2nd row ? He is what, 6 ft 9?

    Has Ahern being played as a 6 for Munster harmed his chances maybe? Baird will IMO get himself into the 6 shirt soon enough.

    McCarthy, injury permitting, will be in the Ireland 23 for a long time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Even if there were 20 centrals, given that Munster players made up around 15 of any given 22 then they would have gotten the vast majority of those contracts.

    The greater the number of central contracts, the lower the remaining % of total expenditure the IRFU had to share around the provinces. Those with fewer central contracts were impacted to an even greater extent than they are now.

    I dont believe it was a coincidence that a bunch of Leinster developed players went and plied their trade in the UK during that period.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,576 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Munster were absolutely wrecked by an injury crisis of farcical proportions for most of the season. There's not really anyone to blame but the mocker gods for how these last 6 months have gone. I think Kitshoff should have gone south instead.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Frawley would be an obvious counter-point to this, no?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Don't think Munster had 15 of any 22

    Was usually about 9-10

    Leinster has 6-7 when Mal OKelly was in the 22

    Ulster supplied Best x 3, Bowe, Trimble, Boss, Paddy Wallace

    England in 2007

    Horan, Best, Hayes, OCallaghan, POC, Easterby, Wallace, Leamy, Stringer, ROG, Hickie, D'Arcy, BOD, Horgan,Dempsey

    Simon Best, Flannery, Mick ODriscoll, Neil Best, Boss, Trimble, paddy wallace



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof






  • Without derailing the conversation too much, does anyone know the name of the song leinster walked out to last season?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Google searches suggest there was 15 in 2013 and as many as 25 in the mid noughties split evenly-ish between Ulster, munster and Leinster (munster had 2 or 3 more than Leinster and Ulster) which, when you look at the squad v England in 2007 would make sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,699 ✭✭✭Dubinusa




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 443 ✭✭Madeoface


    I have to defend Charlie Ngati here, he was very good when he came on. Was punching holes that Leinster didn't punch for the 20 odd minutes after half time where we'd no ideas before he came on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,699 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Off the Barrett angle. Exeter got whipped by Toulouse. It's also worth noting that neither Dunne or R.O.L played.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,699 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Finally watching the match!!



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,963 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭hold my beer


    Any words? They've all blended into 1 for me at this stage.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    I've figured it out.

    Rassie sent Nienabar to get intel on the Irish setup.

    Now Razor can get two-for-one intel by sending Barrett to Leinster.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭Random Bloke


    Q: How many munster players does it take to change a light bulb?

    A: More imports

    You see whatever the question is regarding munster players, the answer is always more imports.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭ironingbored


    https://twitter.com/GifsRugbyNStuff/status/1779966139373666808?t=NiyQGIAe5fEhLQkxtiEEdg&s=19



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    I'm not doubting that Leinster make money. I'm just wondering whether signings like this are the reason or the reward.

    There's not really an argument to be made here. Leinster sold 51,000 tickets in the Aviva in five days, a week after getting 40,000 in the gate. That's a lot of ticket money and getting to the semi-finals means a) lots more tickets and b) a fair chunk of EPCR prize money.

    And the highest profile NIQ in the 23 was Michael Alaalatoa.

    So, "signings like this" aren't the reason Leinster bring in lots of money. Not remotely.

    The only way Irish provinces can ever compete is through home-grown talent and the occasional project or granny-rule player. Leinster have hit an incredible run of talent production and very savvy (but pretty low-budget) acquisitions, there's nothing else to it.

    I appreciate that this has hit a lot of nerves but there isn't a pattern here. I'm struggling to remember the last really big name we signed. Scott Fardy in 2017 is about the best I can come up with, not exactly a global superstar, unless I'm missing someone major? So we don't really get rewarded too often either.



  • Administrators Posts: 54,256 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Rant incoming.

    The problem is the system is self-fulfilling from a Leinster point of view. Leinster have what, 10 or 11 players on central deals now? Anyone who suggests this doesn't have any impact is talking through their hoop IMO.

    The Leinster squad is massively subsidised by the IRFU. Yea you develop your own players, etc etc etc. Yes, using an incredibly wealthy private school system, and then once those players pop out of college and into the Leinster team the money is always found to ensure they stay in place. Not too many club teams out there who could afford to have the majority of the national team as their starting team plus a few guests. Kudos of course for developing them, but the number one reason that this happens is money.

    All of this "Leinster rarely sign big names" is a total red herring. The Leinster squad is, unquestionably, one of the most expensive squads in world rugby. I think we should be honest about that. There's a notion that Saturday's game was some David vs Goliath story, in reality it was big money club vs big money club. That's fair enough but it should be called for what it is.

    This year they went out and signed the World Cup winning head coach to be an assistant to Leo Cullen. They've signed a 2 time World Cup winning springbok second row to warm the bench. They've now signed one of the best backs in the world who again, might not even make the 23. And they're in the market for a prop, and you can guarantee that this prop isn't going to be signed from the Sydney Fisherman's 3rd XV because he happens to have an Irish granny.

    Meanwhile others are having to trim squads to save money. We're operating in different realities here.

    All of this waffle about "other provinces need to develop more players" is so ludicrous, it's like Bill Gates telling a min wage worker that to improve their lot they just need to get better at playing the stock market. Money follows money.

    Leinster go far in Europe and sell out the Aviva cause they have massive money behind the squad, which brings in more money, which means spending more money, which means going far in Europe and selling out the Aviva, which brings in more money, which means spending more money, which means going far in Europe and selling out the Aviva, which brings in more money, and on and on and on and on we go.

    The IRFU are obviously happy for this to be the case. Why wouldn't they be? Team Ireland are going well, at least one team is doing well at club level, why would they give a crap that the gap between the haves and have nots is widening?

    So long as the system is run like this it is impossible for any other province to usurp Leinster. Impossible. Literally pissing into the wind. Our pockets just aren't deep enough.

    I keep hearing about Munster in the 00s. Munster in the 00s were very good by sheer luck of having an exceptional group of players come through at the same time. Once those players aged they couldn't sustain it. It's absolutely nothing like Leinster today because today the problem is systemic. The system is designed to suit Leinster (on purpose or by fluke), you would be hard pressed to design a system that suits Leinster more perfect than the one you have today.

    Unless there's some unprecedented episode of mismanagement or monumental change in IRFU policy Leinster's position at the top of Irish rugby is under no threat at all, it literally doesn't matter one jot what anyone else does; they aren't going to ever come close.

    I have accepted a few things:

    1. Ulster will never win another European cup, because it's simply impossible for us under the current funding model to do so.
    2. Like Munster in 2023, Ulster will only ever win a URC if Leinster are distracted (and pigs fly etc) .

    I've made peace with this. It helps. But it genuinely does get to the stage where you have to wonder what is the point, when it becomes abundantly clear that your club is being run just to make up the numbers while the other club run by your club's owners is dining at the top table.

    I don't expect any Leinster fans to care though, I wouldn't if I was one. You lads can quite rightly enjoy being in a place that the rest of us can only dream of.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Not saying Ngatai played poorly.

    However, out of the balance of probabilities given their history Barrett would have likely played even better.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,699 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I thought Frawley played a blinder! My motm.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,699 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    So should Leinster not develop players? Should they allow the other provinces 1st dibs at these players? Can the union force these players to go elsewhere? Would this help Leinster? Do any of these lads want to play elsewhere? There's really no fix. Ulster have not developed an Ulster born forward since Henderson. Things look better now though. I understand the frustration and maybe the central contract system is outdated?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,614 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Taking the Barrett signing purely as a standalone event I don't really get the provincial angle (unless you're a Connacht fan maybe). If you talk about star, world class NIQs Leinster will have Snyman and Barrett next season. Munster had Snyman and de Allende relatively recently, and similar with Ulster having Vermeulen and Kitshoff. Of course, playing in a better team it's more likely there'll be more big performances and wow moments, so they'll seem more prominent for Leinster.

    I do think it's a questionable signing all the same. People can say it's only for 6 months, but that amount of time can sometimes be crucial for a player who isn't fully established. It'll hardly make a difference to a Henshaw or a Ringrose or a Keenan if they get pushed out of the team for a few matches. But featuring in one or two big games could really make a difference for a Brownlee or even potentially a Frawley. Osborne is in a far better place in terms of having a body of work he can point to after starting against the Bulls and La Rochelle.

    We'll see what happens, I suppose.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    As I said before, I understand the disgruntlement of Ulster fans but that is a rant that has rewritten history to suit the narrative you feel is right. It is true Ulster have never gotten the same love from the IRFU but the province can barely go a season without making a terrible hire or signing that knocks you back.

    While Leinster spent years building up their success from being a laughing stock, Munster completely squandered their 'luck' and their significant IRFU subsidies during that period. I agree, Irish sides aren't David - the whole Munster narrative is false that they were a 'David' when in the 00s they had the Irish 1-10, in an era where that is where the game was mostly won, and they supplemented it with signing some of the best players in the world in their backs. They had an enormous fanbase and corporate sponsorship and rather than moving with professionalism and investing in their system to ensure the continued growth, the Munster leadership naval gazed and let it all slip away. A clear example is sticking with split training facilities for years for internal political reasons when it was clear it was a ridiculous way for a professional team to develop their players, especially their young ones. There is absolutely no surprise that Munster are now producing far higher quality of young players having finally moved into professionalism.

    If you told a Leinster fan in the early '00s that we'd be in this spot 20 years later they'd have laughed you out the door. Leinster were openly mocked (Ladyboys), playing in front of 3 men and their dog, got changed in portacabins, were unable to keep their players from leaving to go to the UK to play, and even a sizeable proportion of their own province fanbase supported another one (Lunsters). Leinster do have some natural advantages over the other provinces, however your version of history completely belittles the fantastic work Leinster have done over the last 20 years, the hard work and smart decisions while other provinces were shooting themselves in the foot over and over again.

    The bitterness of opposing fans shows exactly how far we've come. We haven't won a trophy in years and there's more focus on how to drag Leinster down than looking at the faults of their own province and the steps they can take to improve.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,699 ✭✭✭Dubinusa




  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,576 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Who was the last big name foreign (NIQ) signing that came in and significantly improved a province?

    Thorn? Coetzee when he eventually got fit? Fardy if you could call him a big name?



  • Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Rootsblower


    You forgot Jean de Villiers, Doug Howlett, Rua Tipoki,Christian Cullen,Lifeimi Mafi, Gary Connolly , Brian Carney , Sam Tuitipou ,Jim Williams, John Langford though the latter was way back in the mists of time. So yea I think our southern brothers who are moaning about us signing JB on a short term deal need to look back over their own previous history. A lot of the above were signed during the Munster heyday also.

    IMO Barrett and Snyman have been signed because of cotton wooling of potential Lions tourists come business end of next season.

    Now for a top class NIQ tight head to complete the team even just to hear the jealous comments.

    The accusations of buying trophies have started but the Academy produced 18 of the 23 last Saturday so f*** the begrudgers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,865 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    the big name over seas signing for years haven’t been made by Leinster, they have gone to Munster and Ulster.



  • Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Rootsblower


    Nice post in a respectful manner made there. I would say as a long time Leinster fan that Leinster are now a self fulfilling prophecy. Talent breeds success which breeds money which breeds more talent.

    My friend works for Siemens in Germany. He says the company ethos is to grow Siemens by 2-3% per year every year, that’s the last 20 years at Leinster. Now it’s time to reap the rewards.

    1 caveat to ur point also is what goes up must come down and make no mistake about it there will come a time when there will be lean years for Leinster. I don’t know when that will be but it will happen. I hope some of the Leinster fans gloating online slagging of their provincial brothers will be just as vocal defending their province when the lean times come but I suspect their support will fade away then. I would love to see the other provinces have a bit more success but I suspect it’s a long way off at the Champions Cup level.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    He has been superb for them, an absolute cornerstone of their success.

    But I wouldn't want him now. He worked hard at the weekend but didn't look like the player he was at all. Threw himself into multiple rucks but was managed very well by Leinster and he was a complete non-entity in the loose.

    I believe he has signed up for another season in LAR but it looked like the legs are starting to go at the weekend.



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