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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 43 DoyleLoneganYouFollow




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,727 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    Do you actually think Military aid comes in the form of dollar bills?

    Can you specifically call out the equipment that was junk?

    This is what the US has actually provided Ukraine:

    https://media.defense.gov/2023/Dec/06/2003352825/-1/-1/1/202311206_UKRAINE_FACT_SHEET_PDA_52_003.PDF

    Patriots, NASAMS, AIM-9M missiles, Stingers, Himars, GLSDM, Abrams, Bradleys, Strykers, MRAPS, Javelins, TOW missiles.....

    That all junk in you eyes?



  • Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭zerosquared


    EU alone gave 50 bill euro this year (not too far off 60bn dollars at current rates) and various western countries (Norway, Japan, Korea, UK, Canada) and eu states gave more on top already

    so either backup your bizzare statement with facts or admit to talking up bullcrap

    The theatre in congress will be resolved, and even if it’s not and Russia “wins” what exactly is it that they will win? As I said before there is no universe in which sanctions are dropped



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,822 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Are you still talking about the US equipment? It wasn't "junk" (or rubbish, as some quirky American-language speakers still call it over here).

    Some of it was pretty new I think (a patriot air defence system + the missiles for it, fancier guided shells and rockets for artillery systems, Himars etc.).

    Seems like even the old(er) stuff they took from stockpiles was more than a match for the best that Russia can put out, so not "junk" by definition.

    As we lament here + discussed in recent pages, the US didn't send over enough of it when they were able to, and can't send more at present due to internal politics.

    On the sending of confiscated cars to Ukraine, vehicles (assuming good working order) are always useful, more to keeping a country going than fighting and weapons. I imagine Ukraine is quite hard on them at the moment, for many reasons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭zerosquared




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  • Registered Users Posts: 43 DoyleLoneganYouFollow


    Really?

    The US pledged these F-16's. How many of them? 10? 20?

    If an F-16 was to arrive in Ukraine it probably would have had Maverick's saliva on the windshield. Oh and in order to launch an F-16 you need a specific runway. They can't just land and take off from Stansted.

    Not a one has arrived. When were those special runways constructed? NEVER?

    The Ukrainian forces hated the junk that was given to them. Abrams tanks useless, Bradleys breaking down. Leopard tanks pathetic. Blown to pieces in a month.

    Oh…HIMARS, though. Now we're winning. And all the while the orcs are so dumb. What was it? … "Thank God they are so f**king stupid"



  • Registered Users Posts: 43 DoyleLoneganYouFollow


    Thanks for that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,174 ✭✭✭✭Say my name




  • Registered Users Posts: 43 DoyleLoneganYouFollow


    Well yes, it IS junk. How successful has any of this been?

    As I mentioned before, the Ukrainians hate using this garbage because it doesn't work properly or at least the way it ought to.

    An Abrams tank is a sitting duck. It has no heat shield so it can be seen at night from a man on the Moon. It also has a turbine engine which means it actually does gallons to the mile rather than miles to the gallon.

    So yeah…junk. Like sending a Harley-Davidson into the TT races. Hog and rider into a tree after 100 yards.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭Virgil°


    There's honestly so much wrong with everything you post it's really hard to pick a place to start…… So I won't.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭dinorebel


    Should probably change your name to DoyleWrongAgain.



  • Registered Users Posts: 43 DoyleLoneganYouFollow


    Ike it has been said before……why should we fear Russia if garbage can hold them back?

    It reminds me of that scene in the movie "A Few Good Men".

    "Colonel, if you ordered your men not to touch Santiago….and your orders are always followed…then why was it necessary to have him transferred off the base?"



  • Registered Users Posts: 43 DoyleLoneganYouFollow


    Well if it was so amazing then why are people crying about the GOP not giving more of it?

    Bradleys blown to atoms. Leopards just breaking down….Abrams sinking in the mud.

    Yes…junk. What next? An aircraft carrier that is as useless as an inflatable dartboard? Let's send a stealth bomber. It can only fly when it's not raining and needs a billion dollar hangar that takes years to build.

    Don't you find it questionable that when the US attacked Iraq one of their soldiers had to ask that old dick, Rumsfeld, "why do we have to scavenge in scrapyards to weld and up-armour our Humvees?"

    So if the US can't even spare a fraction of the money that they are making to give their grunts a modicum of protection in Iraq, what makes you think that they are going to give unlimited dough and state-of-the-art kit to Ukraine?



  • Registered Users Posts: 43 DoyleLoneganYouFollow


    If Russia is such a threat to the world then why would internal politics have anything to do with that?

    Drop the gavel and mobilize before we are all gobbled up by Putin…no? Why aren't NATO massing on the borders of Norway and the Czech Republic and carrier groups off the coast of Vladivostok for fear that our kids will be learning ballet instead of hip-hop dance moves?



  • Registered Users Posts: 43 DoyleLoneganYouFollow


    I hate quoting the NYT, that rag mag but I will here:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/19/world/europe/ukraine-weapons-howitzers-contracts.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 43 DoyleLoneganYouFollow


    And you expect to win a war when this is going on:

    " Ukraine has paid contractors hundreds of millions of dollars for weapons that have not been delivered, and some of the much-publicized arms donated by its allies have been so decrepit that they were deemed fit only to be cannibalized for spare parts.

    Ukrainian government documents show that as of the end of last year, Kyiv had paid arms suppliers more than $800 million since the Russian invasion in February 2022 for contracts that went completely or partly unfulfilled.

    Two people involved in Ukraine’s arms purchasing said that some of the missing weapons had eventually been delivered, and that in other cases brokers had refunded the money. But as of early this spring, hundreds of millions of dollars had been paid — including to state-owned companies — for arms never materialized, one of these people said.

    “We did have cases where we paid money and we didn’t receive,” Volodymyr Havrylov, a deputy defense minister working on arms procurement, said in a recent interview. He said the government this year had begun analyzing its past purchases and excluding problematic contractors."

    TIP OF THE ICEBERG



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,635 ✭✭✭zv2


    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” — Voltaire



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭Hoop66


    "Ho Chi Minh had no communist leanings before the war."

    That'd be "One of the founders of the French Communist Party (1920) & founded the Communist Party of Vietnam (1930)" Ho Chi Minh?


    Wherever you're getting your ideas from, it seems a bit light on historical fact.

    Post edited by Hoop66 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,971 ✭✭✭threeball


    How would the mans own words suffice? He knew nothing of communism and was only drawn to the party after the Russian revolution as a means to secure Vietnams independence from colonialism. He used communism that same way as the Irish used help from outside sources and ideas to try to secure our own independence. He was primarily a nationalist who saw a movement which could help him further his ideals.

    https://challenge-magazine.org/2020/05/19/ho-chi-minh-how-i-became-a-communist/



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Because bigger picture; the "garbage" did hold them back. What had been a Russian flying column lightning war to take Kiev and install their own government fell on its arse, not least due to clear failures on the Russian logistical side. Spun up at first as the now memory holed "feint" then and much later the whole "Boris Johnson told Kiev to keep fighting" because that sounds better. Yes indeed… Never mind the later losses of Kherson and Kharkiv within weeks of the Kremlin declaring them Forever Russia©. Never mind the also memory holed coup that wasn't from their own private military unit that rattled the Kremlin into blocking roads with buses and lashing together lightly armed checkpoints on the outskirts of Moscow.

    Two years in even with the shortages of AA and no Ukrainian air force to speak of Russia still doesn't have air superiority and if the Russian navy were any more eastwards it would be landlocked. Russia has been forced by strategic and tactical failures to resort to at distance attacks on infrastructure and WW1 trench warfare going hedgerow to hedgerow using some of the only advantages it has; more artillery, more manpower & the willingness to sacrifice that manpower. And even with those advantages in numbers against a far smaller adversary using garbage it's still extremely slow going.

    And that's just the war to gain territory. Whatever peace follows is when the going gets tougher. It always does. The US suffered the vast majority of its casualties after they won the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Russia hasn't passed the first stage yet.

    Even if they kill or drive all Ukraine sympathisers from the parts they hold or even if they take all the way to the Dnieper Russia's still fooked. They'll inherit a cratered mess that they'll have to rebuild. Rebuild with resources they can ill afford. Take sanctions. The mistake often made regarding sanctions is people expect them to have an immediate effect. That's actually not their purpose. What sanctions do is heavily curtail growth and it gets worse over time. The death of a thousand cuts. Now Russia is a major producer of energy and food, so it won't go cold or hungry any time soon and beyond the cities lifestyles have changed little enough in decades, but whatever wider economic growth that happened in Russia since 2000(which peaked circa 2009) that's not looking great at all. Turning large parts of your industrial base to war production makes this worse again.

    Note too; BRICS or more to the point, the lack of Russian spin/chatter about it now. Well, within months of this invasion the BRICS bank cut funding to Russian projects. Oops… Sure, no doubt China gives Russia some backdoor tech, but China has her own fish to fry. India is doing what they wisely did during Cold War 1; largely keeping out of it. Brazil is too far away, South Africa is a crisis away from being utterly fecked. For me the more "interesting" stuff around BRICS is actually newbie members in the Middle East. Russia's actual allies? Iran and North Korea. Whatever about the former, that Russia needed to cosy up to the latter speaks volumes, little of it good.

    They've also created an independent Ukraine in the mind of Ukrainians and the wider world that didn't exist before. Imperialist mindsets tend to do that. Not least here in Ireland. New nations are born from that kinda thing. Russia is also facing a much expanded NATO and a more belligerent Europe with it. Doh! It's not exactly a great sign when long standing neutral nations like Finland and Sweden drop that overnight and take a side against you and are confident enough to do so.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭zerosquared


    Great post

    https://web.archive.org/web/20240413203658/https%3A//www.economist.com/by-invitation/2024/04/11/russia-is-sure-to-lose-in-ukraine-reckons-a-chinese-expert-on-russia

    Shrewd observers note that China’s stance towards Russia has reverted from the “no limits” stance of early 2022, before the war, to the traditional principles of “non-alignment, non-confrontation and non-targeting of third parties”.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭nigeldaniel


    I would not be one to say US military hardware is rubbish. A vast majority of it is perfect workable and does what it says it does. The Abrams tank, point to note, the US told Ukraine a long time ago it was not ideal for warfare in Eastern Europe. It uses alot of fuel and needs specific and frequent maintenance. I think in fact someone said to me it was designed to deal with desert war. The F16 are seriously top drawer stuff a old one in Turkey shot down a top end Russia jet a few years back. Over all, US hardware it miles ahead off Russia and I would say China. My only problem with the US these days is how slow they have been delivering the gear Ukraine so badly needed much earlier. The F16 would have helped the plan B counter attack last year. This time round I suspect they will be used for air defense.

    Dan.



  • Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭zerosquared


    Some “junk”

    I would say the closest F16s get to frontline is to lob glide bombs at Russians, probably mostly used to chase/intercept drones and missiles like we seen this week being done around Israel, and as another platform for cruise missiles like above link from today



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,971 ✭✭✭threeball


    The gear isn't rubbish, but they've been bandying around figures that made it look like they were providing astronomical amounts of money into Ukraine when in reality they were sending gear that would have cost them millions if not billions to de-commission and pricing it out as if it were new off the production line. All the tanks and bradleys they sent were mothballed, most would have been heading for scrap. The cluster munitions were to be de-commissioned. The himars were coming to end of life in many cases. The patriots were some of the only gear that was close to the value put on it. My point is, the headline figures are probably 10x the real cost figures and gave ammunition to many pro Russian senators and congressmen to use as a stick to beat anyone who wanted to send more. If they were honest in their monetary assessments from the start then they'd have been able to give more with less flak.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,174 ✭✭✭EltonJohn69


    the only chance of this war of being a success is that russia can ransack Ukraines natural resources and farmland. In order to do that they need a subordinate population or conduct/continue a campaign of genocide that would wipe out millions from the population. Millions fleeing to other parts of Europe will make their campaign of genocide easier.



  • Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭zerosquared


    What good are resources if Russia remains the most sanctioned country in world where even “allies” avoid or can’t do business, eg Turkish, UAE and Chinese banks deliberately cutting off any Russia links out of fear of losing access to much larger western markets or Iran and North Korea insisting on payment in gold or India insisting their currency which can’t be used outside of India used.

    Overall volumes both physical and measured in dollars of every Russian natural resource exports are down, be it gas, oil, coal, diamonds, metals, or even uranium

    Their “allies” are laughing while paying (when find a loophole) a fraction of the price for these resources as the sanctions suit them quite well too. Why? Because Russia willingly became nothing more than a resource colony with no bargaining power.

    Ireland has next to no natural resources yet has an economy a third the size of Russia and per capita wealth (and lower inequality) that is 10x average Russians

    tl.dr: I do not subscribe to the resources theory, it’s at best a secondary objective for Putin



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,123 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    There's too much focus on the US and this "will they, won't they" aid saga. There is no immediate threat to the US, it is the opposite side of the world. It's for the Americans to decide.

    How can it be that Europe, with an economy and population far greater than that of Russia, is unable to defend itself? Not to mention that Europe has more advanced technology and access globally. That is the big question.

    I know many European countries have given aid, and taken in many refugees, but the fact seems to be that Ukraine is getting outgunned on the front lines and forced to retreat. This is most shocking.

    Even the most cynical European who has no compassion of Ukrainian people must see that for European security, Russia must at an absolute minimum be bogged down in Ukraine.

    Why can't Europe support, if not in attacking manoeuvres but at least to shoot down the Russian missiles to save lives ?

    yes, this war is also catastrophic for Russia, but frankly they don't care



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,645 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Drop the gavel and mobilize before we are all gobbled up by Putin…no? Why aren't NATO massing on the borders of Norway and the Czech Republic and carrier groups off the coast of Vladivostok for fear that our kids will be learning ballet instead of hip-hop dance moves?

    let the mask slip there



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,174 ✭✭✭EltonJohn69


    give it 10/20 years and the west will start buying russian oil/ gas. They will use a change of russian leader as an excuse to re establish trade/relations… but they just want that cheap oil/gas. Hopefully I am wrong but the last few weeks has made be quite depressed about the situation.

    In a way wrecking Ukraine is a win for russia, they can’t have a successful ex soviet state neighbour challenging them in the energy sector.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,174 ✭✭✭EltonJohn69


    russia has best tank.



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