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Public charging prices not dropping when wholesale prices drop

  • 03-04-2024 7:45pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,071 ✭✭✭✭


    People are always complaining about petrol stations ramping up their prices when the price of crude increases and not dropping them as fast when crude drops. I've only a sample of 1 year but the cost of charging at public chargers hasn't dropped since I signed to multiple companies. The domestic suppliers are dropping prices, not as much as the wholesale price, but public charging prices are the same as when I signed up last year.



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 531 ✭✭✭electricus


    I don’t think we’ll see any big reductions or price competition while the fast charging networks are still expanding. Building charging infrastructure is expensive and the providers will be looking to cover costs.

    On street charging for those without home charging is a different matter and shouldn’t be so expensive.

    edit: typo

    Post edited by electricus on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Happens a lot in Ireland across a wide range of products.

    It's self defeating to keep prices high thus causing people to go back to other fuels. This reducing the numbers of customers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭k123456


    Its unfortunately the same for

    Residential elec / gas customers , rates have come down, but very slowly

    Bank accounts, when wholesale interest rates rise ; customer deposit interest rates do not follow suit

    etc

    This indicates a lack of regulation from the government



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,637 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    A massive lack.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Price regulation doesn't work. It was tried in the past (1980s) and was a complete waste of time and money. Think about what you're trying to do and the complexity involved.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,209 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    It indicates a lack of competition, due to over regulation in some areas

    And cartel like behaviour for those participating in the market



  • Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭crl84


    No-one is going to be reducing prices when their CapEx on getting sites up were anywhere from a few thousand (for an AC charger stuck on an existing wall), to 100s of thousands.

    A 150KW DC charging unit costs 50k+. Once you add in groundworks, grid connections, multiple units, you're not far off half a million for a larger site.

    That's a lot of electricity that needs to sold to make costs back, ignoring ongoing maintenance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    Its to keep the chargers as free as possible. The charging network is so bad that if it was any cheaper it would be even harder to get a charger when you need one. For that reason I think the price will actually just be going up in the next year or so.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    These days I see more available chargers than taken ones, the prices are to fund growth not to keep people away.

    The problematic ones are where there's only a single chargers at single location but I avoid using them. Thankfully there's way more choice than their used to be



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,870 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Well that certainly a valid reason. I use them so rarely its not really an issue for me.

    Might be a problem for people who do regular long distance journeys.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,598 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    Are they not getting grants to install them - that's why Tesla is opening new sites to all cars, condition of the funding? Now, maybe the grants don't cover the full cost, I've no idea, but I don't think the companies re footing the full cost themselves.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    There are grants being made available which will bring down some of the cost, up till now Applegreen, Maxol, CircleK have been paying for it themselves. No doubt they'll also be applying for funding based on the new funds available. Government is transitioning away from EV purchase incentives and towards infrastructure funding instead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Not any more. There are still accelerated capital allowances (100% in first year).

    There will be a residential charging grant where off street parking is limited or impossible. No detail on that yet.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Grant scheme is here, and on etenders https://www.tii.ie/roads-tolling/tolling-information/zevi-ev-charging-infrastr-LDV/15.02.2408.08.01.124_LDV-Scheme-Launch-Brochure_I03_2024.02.15-%281%29.pdf

    https://www.etenders.gov.ie/epps/cft/listContractDocuments.do?resourceId=3094604

    Applicants need to have submitted by April 10th, and have the infra ready by December 2025.

    Main requirements are that sites aren't within 30km of another charging pool, it's on the designated road network and

    No one company can run more than 40% of the sites.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Ok, this is a new scheme. There was a previous one launched in 2022 which closed in early 2023.

    40% is generous enough to be fair.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,168 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Is there grants , carbon offsets, and write downs for capex built into those figures often people mask the actual money spent with basic things like the works and the units when in fact the incentives and tax system allows business to minimise these costs extensively.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    Here's what John Byrne the head of E-cars told the Irish Times on August 16th 2023.

    “We purchase our electricity in blocks, so as the wholesale price has come down, and as we roll over our contracts and buy our next blocks of energy, then we hope to avail of those lower wholesale costs and pass those savings on to consumers. We always try to keep a good delta of pricing between us and petrol and diesel, because we know that cost helps to drive more people into electric motoring. The price of petrol and diesel has remained fairly constant, so the price of electricity will have to drop, and I’m hopeful that we’re going to be able to pass on those reductions in the near future.”

    That “near future” should, hopefully, mean by the autumn of this year, and the plan is that prices will be reduced if not on the actual day of the new energy supply contracts being signed, then certainly within a matter of days.

    They said they'd reduce prices and they never did. As the biggest player in the market no one else is going to move until they do. They also clearly understand that charging prices have to be cheaper than petrol or diesel so as to drive demand for electric cars, which new sales are down 14% this year. Someone really needs to find out answers as to why their prices are so high.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Mad_Lad


    Where there's profit to be made you can be sure they'll make it. We all knew prices would rise considerably though, it was only a matter of time.

    Another reason we usually don't bother taking the id3 a lot of places now, I was a lot more keen to endure the hassle when it was free but the prices now, I'm not so keen to pay for the inconvenience, meaning inconvenience to me and the Missus, she's not into it at all and in fairness she tolerated the whole thing long enough.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,168 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Free though... fairly obvious you'd be happy to avail of anything that was free. I'd include public transport in that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Mad_Lad


    I didn't abuse the free charging in fairness unlike many that were on FB at the time looking to Kill people at the thoughts about putting some control on the amount of time one spent sucking endless KWh out of the grid. Glad I'm long off Facebook.

    I'll be entitled to free travel when the time comes just like you and everyone else will.

    You can't deny there was a lot more tolerance to charging because it was free.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,563 ✭✭✭eagerv


    We only had about 6 months of free charging, but even with the abuse chargers were usually not blocked. Much fewer EVs on the road then.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,662 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    I've posted on this before but the two main reasons why prices aren't falling are a lack of competition and a lack of price sensitivity.

    On competition, the charging companies have deliberately chosen sites that are a distance from other chargers. This means that when you arrive at ballybaile with 10% you have no choice but to use the charger that's available. Battery tech that offers the highest speeds for the lowest state of charge also encourages charging at a selected point rather than points along the way. There are only a handful of colocated rapid chargers in the country. We need far more.

    Secondly, cheap home charging means that drivers of EVs are not really sensitive to public charger price as long as their overall costs are substantially lower than diesel. Occasional use of rip-off public chargers doesn't change that equation by much.

    The other consideration is that the charging companies are under pressure to get a return on their massive capital investment.

    The key to cheap charging is lowering the capital cost of installing chargers. This will allow Co-location of charging companies and reduce their pressure for return on investment. However doing any kind of job that involves building is extremely expensive here, so don't expect much in the short term.

    If the country had actually been serious about charging, a state agency would have fully built out and owned the charging network and allowed other companies to sell energy through it. By using a grant system and passing ownership across into a semi state this has resulted in a lack of competition.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,820 ✭✭✭MojoMaker


    Electricity would need to hit Eur1.10 per KwH for it to be more expensive by the kilometre than the diesel it replaced for me.

    Granted it wasn't a particularly efficient diesel SUV but it was fairly typical of the vehicle category that first time EV drivers nonetheless spring from.

    Even if it was more expensive per kilometre the other huge advantages completely outweigh the cost. EV ownership is so much more than what it costs you or doesn't cost you per month. It's a completely different and completely better overall driving and ownership experience, and is contributing in its own small way to cleaner urban air for all of us.

    It would want to be significantly more expensive to own and operate for me to think twice about a move to EVs, but I accept I am lucky in where I find myself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Mad_Lad


    Some chargers were much more abused than others. It was definitely an issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭k123456


    Free chargers , free driveway charger and 5000 u grant , reduced tolls encouraged me to buy an EV, I will be honest (at the time) saving the planet did not . However , I'm on my 3rd EV now, and free charging is gone thankfully. I will say < I would not move back to non ev, and now that I have an EV and a solar system < I am hopefully doing my bit for the planet. So Yes incentives do work



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,563 ✭✭✭eagerv


    Never really used the faster ones, they were probably abused more. But the rural type 2s were normally not busy and were very handy when shopping or out for a walk when we had a shorter range Ioniq 28kWh.

    The only free charging I made sure I got full value from was my 2000kWh free with my ID.3 1st. Used at Ionity, don't think I have used them since, even though missus uses Ionity fairly regularly.

    My Model 3 does most of my standard longer runs such as Cork and Dublin Airports return without charging, even in coldest weather, haven't used anything other than home charging plus occasional SuC in last two years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 986 ✭✭✭Mad_Lad


    The Street AC points were handy destination charge points but aren't most of them being replaced with a single DC unit now ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,109 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    For comparison, do none of these costs apply to petrol or diesel pumps?

    I think too much fuss is made of the initial costs of the units, it costs just as much, maybe more, to build a petrol station but operators are able to take single digit profit margins from ICE fuel

    Throw back to when wholesale costs were roughly where they are now and ecars were charging per kWh €0.268, €0.305 and €0.37 for AC, DC and HPC respectively. This is probably close to what it should be costing today to charge as wholesale costs are roughly where they were back then



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,109 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    Yes they were handy. Problem is they weren't profitable, or rather as profitable, as DC



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  • Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭crl84


    They do, but most will have been in existence for much longer than EV stations/locations, and have far higher turnover of customers/fuel sales/ancillary sales, so it's much easier and quicker to generate operating profits and start paying back those costs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    The pumps themselves are relatively cheap, but the build cost of a petrol station with a shop, fit-out and other ancillary bits would be in the region of €2 million. A normal petrol station wouldn't be a valid comparison though, one of those Certa 24 hour jobbies with no staff costs or shop would be more like a charging hub. Substitute the cost of fitting tanks for the cost of getting the power in and everything else would be analogous. Probably.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,109 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    How cheap would a pump be by comparison to a DC charger?

    Those fuel storage tanks are normally underground and need to have very high safety standards for obvious reasons so can't see them costing less than a substation for example



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Hard to get an exact price, there are so many variables, but around 2k seems to be a good working figure. You can find them for sale in China for around $1200.

    Storage tanks aren't that expensive, but it's the installation that costs the big bucks. So I think fairly analogous to putting in a substation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    But how many litres of diesel or petrol are you going to be pumping per hour compared to kwh being pumped.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    I'd say the margin would be more important than the volume. Obviously volume is part of the equation, but if you're getting a margin of (say) 10c per kWh vs 4-5c per litre, your volume would only need to be half. And the margin on 350kWh units has to be far more than 10c.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    I think you would be talking 100s of times the volume/units per day not twice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    It was a hypothetical based on a given margin for electricity. I've no idea what the wholesale price of electricity is, but it has to be cheaper than domestic prices. So if I take Energia's price for 24hr (no night rate) at 24c and compare with the average 350kWh+ rates of ~76c. Assuming you've a car capable of taking an average of 200 from start to finish for (say) 15 minutes, that's 50kWh or €25. Your petrol pump would have to pump 500 litres in the same time to make the same money. Don't think that's physically possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,209 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    At the minute maybe, but in future (and even just when costs come down) the volume for charging will go way up.

    It is without doubt far more profitable to run EV chargers than fuel pumps, even at current low volumes. The ROI is much better



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    I think you might be suffering from a bit of bias in your thinking here :)

    How much fuel do you think an average garage pumps per day from one tank?

    Now how many kwh do you think an average charger gets through in a day?

    We did a project in college where we sat and watched the pumps for a day in a garage in Ashbourne, which wouldnt even be the busiest of garages. It just had a convenient place to park and watch the cars, the amount of people in each car and the amount of people that went into the shop from once place all day.

    Each pump served an average of 14 cars per hour from opening til closing and there was a steady stream all day.

    I never did that with an ev charger, but im guessing maybe 2 to 3 per hour per charger, if there is a steady stream all day.

    Now we didnt check if they were filling fully or just half etc so we just assume a half tank for every car.

    Also think about the fact that most EV owners do 95% of their charging at home too, so your market is less than a petrol pump.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Question my figures, but don't accuse me of bias when I provided a quite detailed basis for my calculations. And 14 cars per hour is one every 4 minutes or so. That sounds like the pump was going every minute from open to close. In that 4 minutes you have to get out of the car, open the fuel cap, insert the nozzle and pump (average pump speed is 40l/min). Replace the nozzle, close the fuel cap and then queue in the shop to pay, exit and get in the car and drive away. You could do it, but everyone? All the time? Without spending time in the shop buying snacks or drinks or whatever? This sounds like a max rather than an average.

    As for EV chargers, the motorway ones will be busy all day because (as you say) the majority of charging is done at home (the figure is 90% by the way), but longer journeys require top ups or at destinations. ESB eCars app shows average peak times for their chargers and these are from about 8am to 7 or 8pm. Are they used every minute of that time? I doubt it. But even at a quarter of the time (3 hours) a 150kWh charger is going to deliver 450kWh or (at my rough margin figure) €225. The equivalent of 4,500 litres of fuel.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    I think you are getting a bit sensitive here.

    You are not making any sense at all if you just think about what you are saying here.

    I will bow out and leave you to it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    You accused me of bias. A completely baseless accusation.

    But yeah, bye.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭SharkMX




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 692 ✭✭✭kaahooters


    teh pumps in stations are about 50k, a peice, 100kw dc charger is about the same price.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Gulp. Didn't think they would be close to that much. You can actually buy them in China for a fraction of that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,168 ✭✭✭✭listermint




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    I would think not. Probably destined for 'Merica



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,168 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    I think they're also required for regular independent inspections here safety and calibration significant service costs on those. Not sure if it's monthly or less frequent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Less frequent I think. You can see the stickers on the pumps with the date of the last inspection. I don't think there's a cost associated with these, could be wrong though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,071 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    The reason why 95% of EV owners charge at home is because it's not financially viable for someone who can't charge at home to have an EV as it costs as much as an ICE to run and is not as convenient. If they dropped the price of charging then more people would consider BEV instead of going ICE.

    At the moment there is no reason for someone who doesn't have off street parking to consider a BEV. All the options for retrofitting MUDs are expensive and I'm sure that the hubs being planned will be too. What are the prices for charging in the hundreds of new MUDs that have been built since they have been required to have EV charging installed? Or are they all like the new development near my where they have the parking spaces painted but no chargers installed, so ICE cars have claimed them.

    Fuel companies make a few cent a litre profit and it costs nearly the same to install a petrol station as a charging hub. So why is it OK for the electricity retailers to make massive profits, and hold back the transition to BEV, while people always complain about the price of fossil fuel yet fuel retailers make feck all profits from fuel. The profit in petrol stations is the coffee and snacks, €4 for 30ml of hot water, people stuck charging for 20 or 30 minutes would be a captive market.



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