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Breaking - Shooting and Explosion at Concert Hall in Moscow

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Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,527 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords




  • Posts: 753 ✭✭✭ Hattie Mammoth Clothesline


    If I were to guess what's happened here, and it's purely a guess, it's that the US knew that Russia wanted a false flag-type event to occur after the election, which the latter would then blame on Ukraine in some way.

    So by doing what it did, the US was trying to rob Russia of the opportunity, by exposing to the world what their intelligence claimed would take place. The Russians knew the attack would happen, and ignored it -- allowing it to take place. Given it took 1.5 hrs for the Russian forces to mobilize and capture the terrorist, and not kill them, I wouldn't be surprised if those "captured" are forced to admit they did it under Ukrainian instruction (even if Putin stabs them in the back on the agreement, and ends up killing them).

    This then tells the Russian public that Putin has no choice but to escalate in Ukraine, possibly using devastating, overwhelming force.

    I could be completely wrong, but if I were a betting man, I'd bet on the above having taken place.



  • Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭ Rafael Spicy Zeal


    Well they caught one of them and made him eat his ear. Seems suspect.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,261 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    I’m baffled as to why people are sceptical it was Islamist terrorists.


    As if Russia have no enemies in the Islam world.


    Anyone remember the Moscow theatre hostage operation in 2002?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,444 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    ISIS have been fighting the Russians in Syria and know that Russia sees the Taliban in Afghanistan (who they hate) as an ally.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,551 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    All of this is based on the assumption that Putin is holding back right now in Ukraine. It's very unlikely he has some hidden "devastating force" held in reserve.

    He is throwing the entire Russian army and economy at Ukraine already and not getting very far.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 7,522 ✭✭✭ Bridget Eager Sax


    Absolute conspiracy theory. The US embassy warned their citizens in Russia to protect them.

    Thats their job.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Posts: 753 ✭✭✭ Hattie Mammoth Clothesline


    Of course, I don't disagree with that.

    But it had the added advantage of exposing the attack that Russian intelligence must have accepted was going to be true.



  • Posts: 7,522 ✭✭✭ Bridget Eager Sax


    That’s like saying I have a rock in my pocket and I’ve never been mugged so the rock must be lucky? It’s specious reasoning and absolutely just clutching at straws.

    Here’s a more reasonable explanation; the Russians don’t give a piss what the US had to say and Putin is well known to do as he pleases.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭aidanodr


    Timothy Snyders take on this - always worth a read:

    SNIPPET - Russia and the Islamic State have long been engaged in conflict. Russia has been bombing Syria since 2015. Russia and the Islamic State compete for territory and resources in Africa. Islamic State attacked the Russian embassy in Kabul. This is the relevant context for the attack outside Moscow. The horror at Crocus City Hall obviously has nothing to do with gays or Ukrainians or any other of Putin’s enemies of choice.




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,667 ✭✭✭SeanW


    It's also possible IMHO that Russia allowed the attack to happen so that Putler would have something to try to pin on Ukraine. We know that the Russian government and media have been trying to link it to Ukraine any way they can.

    I believe Putler and his buddies in the FSB were behind the Moscow apartment bombings in 1999 or 2000 or whenever that was, to serve as a pretext for war in Chechnya. This would be more of the same.

    Of course, it could also be that Russia's security service are so incompetent that they legitimately just did nothing with the warnings.

    https://u24.gov.ua/
    Join NAFO today:

    Help us in helping Ukraine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,120 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    There's a couple of issues with this theory. Firstly, the US embassy in Moscow published a extremely short (1-2 lines) public security alert on its website on March 7th. It warned US citizens to stay away from public gatherings over the next 48 hours. (i.e. March 8th and 9th). Nothing happened. No attack on March 8th or 9th. Secondly, the Russians have stated that the US provided them with no information regarding any attack. If the Russians are telling the truth, then the US warning to Russia amounted to a public notice to its citizens on its embassy website which in any event proved to be inaccurate.

    As for the Russians letting a terrorist attack happen in Moscow against their own people, that's a hell of a reach. Back on March 7th, the Russians killed what they described as an Islamic State cell that was planning an attack on a synagogue. They didn't let that attack happen just to frame it on Ukraine. And the Russians have absolutely no need for some "false flag" event to justify an escalation (what, over and beyond what they are already doing?) in Ukraine. Ukraine's attacks on places like Belgorod provide all the justification Putin could ever need. There is no upside to letting an attack like this happen in his own capital.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    He'd probably say he was a transgender ukrainian jewish-muslim nazi just to not have his genitals electroshocked again.

    Tweeter seems under the delusion this is a reliable way of information gathering.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭ilkhanid


    What's that quotation again? Something like ''This animal is very bad. When you attack it, it defends itself''



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,120 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    If the Russians allowed the attack to happen so they could link it to Ukraine, then they had an incredible stroke of good fortune that the gunmen immediately headed for the Ukrainian border. Of all the places they could go, they head in the direction of Ukraine. How lucky is that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭aidanodr


    In Timothys substack article above

    I love this bit:

    He ( PUTIN ) claimed that the suspects in the terrorist act were heading for an open "window" on the Russian-Ukrainian border.

    The term "window" is KGB jargon for a spot where the border has been cleared for a covert crossing. That the leader of the Russian Federation uses this term in a public address is a reminder of his own career inside the KGB. Yet Putin had obviously not thought this claim through, since a "window" must involve a clear space on both sides of the border. For escaping terrorists, it would be the Russian side that opened the window. By speaking of a "window" Putin indicated that the terrorists had Russian confederates preparing their exit, which he presumably did not mean. It seems that Putin was hastily making things up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,120 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    You know that US intelligence has a long history of using black sites (including in Poland) to extract information from people they abducted. US intelligence seemed to think it was good enough.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,166 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    I have no interest in defending Putin/Russia but I find it odd that people are so open to linking all sorts of ideas that, were they applied to any other country/situation would be interpreted as insane conspiracy theories.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 723 ✭✭✭engineerws


    Yep I agreed with you with the caveat that it was described as an accident. My comment was deleted?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,667 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Very little of the Russian story makes sense. The Bryansk Oblast borders both Ukraine and Belarus, and Russia has an open border with Belarus vs. their border with Ukraine that is a literal war zone. The car had Belarussian plates, and one of the suspects claims to have been paid in Russian Rubles on a Russian bank card. The attackers must have been really stupid if they planned to spend those Rubles in Ukraine with something like a MIR card ...

    Assuming the attackers were mercenaries it would make more sense to take all the rubles either to Belarus or try to get back to their home countries, such as Tajikistan.

    The other alternative is that is the Gay Transgender Jewish Satanist Nazis running Ukraine have decided to do a deal with ISIS-K (whom just about everyone in the world agrees are bad news) while seeking support from the West, to carry out an attack that gives Ukraine zero military benefit.

    https://u24.gov.ua/
    Join NAFO today:

    Help us in helping Ukraine.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    gunmen immediately headed for the Ukrainian border.

    1) According to who? The Russians.

    2) Even if true, is it a matter of luck or a matter of geography and optimization:

    image.png

    Why spend 2x to 5x as long inside Russia after such an attack to travel through southern Russia there just to have to cross annexed Georgia, or its other allies Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, or due east towards Putin's political allies Belarus, or northeast into Europe (towards NATO!?), far away from ISIS territory? Why wouldn't you go through war-torn Ukraine.

    Propose where else they should have gone through in this scenario? If they were headed anywhere but North or West, Putin and the FSB would allege they were heading back toward Ukraine. Even then, who's gonna fact-check them claiming that?

    I don't see that particularly involving the Ukrainians, just trying to slip through Ukraine's war torn geography if so. Either way trying to escape after an attack right outside Moscow, back to ISIS territory etc. was always going to be mission impossible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭aidanodr


    You know how to tell FSB is behind a terrorist act?

    There are no hostages. Only corpses

    • 1999 Russian Apartment Bombings - 300 dead, no hostages
    • Krokus City Hall - 133 + dead, no hostages
    • Beslan School Siege - 1000 hostages
    • Nord Ost - 912 hostages

    Notice an interesting thing about Beslan & Nord Ost

    While Chechens were holding the hostages, it was FSB, who was ultimately responsible for the deaths of 334 people in Beslan (they set the school on fire) & 132 killed hostages in Nord Ost (FSB poisoned the theatre with gas)

    Tweet content above - https://twitter.com/KateGoesTech/status/1771986176984936514



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Again, it's not a reliable source of information gathering, as it has long been argued similarly against the US use of torture on captives. This deflection is meaningless to the axiom.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Can't say I feel anything for old sparky there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    This is also true but it surely does get something.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Commiserate over the reports for yourself: 'faulty intelligence or no intelligence at all'



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,708 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    That's more cause of a long history that involves Putin and domestic terrorism. The Russian apartment bombings are widely to have been orchestrated by the FSB. Similarly the Mosow theater hostage crisis was equally viewed to have had FSB involvement. Anna Politkovskaya and Litvinenko were two of the people who espoused such views and were assassinated by the Russian state.


    So y'know, while personally I don't currently view Russia as the perpetrator of this attack, people have reasonable reasons to question the narrative cause they've likely done it before. In this case, I think they're more willing to lob the blame at Ukraine with no factual basis for the claim.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,208 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Or more likely, Putin thought it was a trap of some kind....he actually mentioned it a being blackmail, to which he said that he would never succumb. For a Russian, nothing can be accepted at face value, or as the KGB said in the old USSR, trust, but verify.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,166 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    I don't feel that the narrative being pushed by Russia adds up myself.

    It's just odd that it's acceptable to question one group of liars and not another when they make baffling claims in situations like this (like the US and their war on terror and fruitless search for WMD's post 9/11).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭aidanodr


    Should do wonders for Putins raitings in country ( not )




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