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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭rogber


    You realise even when advancing armies lose equipment and personell? And the Russians more than most. It doesn't make the BBC liars or agents of Russian propaganda, which will probably be your next line....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    The days of America paying for Europes defense and security are over, Europeans refuse to do so but Americas attention is now on Asia and it doesn't matter who wins in November in that regard.


    The reality is that a Russian invasion of the baltics will meet strong local resistance, resistance from Poland and others in Eastern Europe, little from Western Europe. Germany doesn't really have a functioning army anymore, the Dutch and French want normality. I can't see Starmer introducing conscription to fight Russia in the Balkans.


    But Trump... is just a panic attack option for Europe because it won't pay for its security, won't secure the neighbourhood, won't defend itself.


    America shouldn't even have to send a single bullet to Ukraine, European States should have so much backed up in aid that there isn't room for it.


    Ukraine are lucky Russia and its army are so badly run.

    Putin is lucky that most of Europe is led by people who don't want to defend themselves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭rogber


    You really take weird sadistic pleasure in watching humans be killed and suffering, don't you? Over and again you either post or describe such scenes. Pretty disturbing, and this is only what you publicly post....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Excellent post. It's been raised before, but always quickly drowned out by mob rule strawman arguments. Not bothered discussing it anymore on here to be honest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Paddigol




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Pity Joe Biden didn't win the Presidency in 2020.


    The US president can release weapons by his own order under the excess articles act. Has that right since the 60s.


    He doesn't need congressional approval and the amount he has at his disposal, under the terms of that act, would arm Western Europe and Ukraine for countless years.


    It has been years of we'll give you planes next year and shells in years to come.


    The outcome of the war will be settled this year and the current US and European preferences is ceasefire and new status quo on the ground.


    That was obvious early last year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,473 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    What nonsense is this? I put forward a small bit of discomfort about watching people die on social media and you trot out strawmen hostility. Check yourself a little. If you can't admit it's more than a little perverse that we're here watching men die like it's nothing, no worse - like it's funny -, regardless of what they did, there's something to address in yourself as well.

    This isn't normal. It shouldn't be normal. You don't need to trot out some "look at you feeling sorry for rapists" garbage logic if you're not willing to countenance the ugliness we're communally indulging in here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,306 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    America shouldn't have needed but they did because a) an ally was invaded by a mobster and b) they have an agreement with Ukraine to help



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,473 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    No one said it’s funny.

    Some just don’t feel the way you do about it.

    Accept that and we all move on.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Well no. The original post literally contained a lauging pun about Russian's "advance". So you can stop that too.

    You even thanked this joking post, so presumably you find it amusing when posts are themselves joking about it.

    I'm not going to move on 'cos you decided to get needlessly aggressive about a small aside to consider our perceptions as observers of this war. If you're gonna make shítty comments then yeah I'm gonna challenge you on it. In fact if you're being blunt and bullish at all, I'd wonder if you know this but won't admit that it's fúcked up.

    Cos guess what: it's fúcked up to watch social media videos of people dying. I'd like to follow the events of this war wihtout having the death of it shared like they're amusing anecdotes - and it speaks to how the nature of this war's media has changed that these videos even exist. Again, that's a bizarre thing to consider against how wars have been reported down the years.

    If you want this thread just to be some 2 minute hate and watch Russians die? Then the justification is yours, not mine for challening that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 668 ✭✭✭highpitcheric


    Im with pixelburp in trying not to like such videos, but this one is pretty hard not to.

    I mean if nothing else, in terms of clarity and visual impact....if there is a best war clip...just hypothetically, it would be an all timer.

    Bad.

    Its very bad. Its definitely not funny. Shame on me.

    He could be alright.

    Bailey had a borderline personality" based on "narcissism, psycho-rigidity, violence, impulsiveness, egocentricity with an intolerance to frustration and a great need for recognition".

    • Psychiatrist Jean Michel Masson and psychologist Katy Lorenzo-Regreny


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,502 ✭✭✭✭josip


    At least the lads in that video had a quick end instead of being cooked to death in a T-72. Are we being desensitized by more accurate graphic depiction of what war is really like? Graphically, we see much worse in war movies. So are we supposed to be repulsed by a less graphic twitter video because real people are dying? As another poster has pointed out, it's difficult to have much sympathy or empathy for the Russians dying when you see what they're capable of in Bucha and other places. I think everyone can react to those videos in their own natural way and they shouldn't be criticized for that.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,473 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    Ok don’t move on, whatever.


    I really don’t care you’re outraged some people don’t think the same as you.


    I’ve moved on from the video, that’s it really. Back to work.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I'm not outraged 🙄 again you're trying to rephrase or reposition the things I'm actually saying.

    You refuse to even discuss the idea that there's a weird perversion in how this war has changed how we - the bystanders who by your own words, are sitting in work - view the whole thing. We can litearlly watch the battles take place, the men die in real-time video, as you check your work emails. Does that not at least make you think?

    It's one thing to despair at the aftermath of innocent victims of war lying dead in sober news reports - quite another share videos of the moment of death during an ugly war like it's something amusing or trivial. We are the voyeurs, sex and violence is part of human nature but we often stop short at watching the moment of death, the killing itself.

    Stop being bullish, or putting words in my mouth. The only person being aggressive or coming close to "outraged" is you with your hostility. I'm just saddened and a bit perturbed that we accept death this easily, watch it with glee and think it funny 'cos it's the bad guy.

    Do you support capital punishment, out of curiosity? Would you support the national broadcast of executions? Not trying to get a rise but you could at least meet me halfway instead of getting antagonistic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,208 ✭✭✭jmreire


    And not only that, if China attacks Taiwan (as is looking more and more likely) then unless the US does a runner on its agreement to help Taiwan defend itself against China, you will have Russians killing Americans because Russia will side with China against their common enemy. But neither will that be anything new, Russia has been attacking the US (and EU, UK) for years now, and killing or attempting to kill US service men worldwide either directly or indirectly. A weakened or destroyed Russian military is of benefit to everyone, but especially the US. If they don't support Ukraine now, they will face them in the future, but at far greater costs in terms of money and lives.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,181 ✭✭✭Field east


    One of the BIG unknowns is as follows .if Russia begins attacking another country - and especially a NATO - it may also have to defend itself against ‘opposition outbreaks’ from within Russia, Moldova mobilising to secure Transista , Georgia initiates the retrieval of its bit taken by Russia , etc etc. Now or over the next two or three years would be the best time for all this to ‘take off ‘ while Russia is militarily WEAK



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Graphically, we see much worse in war movies. 

    But the critical difference here, we know on both a conscious and subconscious level that the violence in movies isn't real. Heads explode, limbs go flying but we know it's not the actors' head exploding; whatever brain chemistry it is that makes us get that sense of vicarious shock or thrill from horror or war movies doesn't seem to get triggered when it's done to a real human. One of my favourite movies is The Thing, a gloriously gory film where the human body is contorted and mutated in variously disgusting ways - but I can reconcile the violence as it's a fiction.

    By way of similar example: do we get excited to watch JFK's head burst like a melon when watching the Zapruder film? No, we don't, of course, because we know that was a real man getting shot in the head - or at least, most of us don't get that thrill. But then that leads to your next point ...

    As another poster has pointed out, it's difficult to have much sympathy or empathy for the Russians dying when you see what they're capable of in Bucha and other places.

    ... therein lies the other question worth consdering: would you be OK watching a TV broadcast of an execution? If it were a murderer, rapist or someone whose crime was suitably repugnant in the eyes of our social & moral norms? Cos it kinda reads like the same thing here: we are ok to watch the moment of death if we just dissociate the individual as an entity to be disliked. Maybe the guy we watched die was one of those Indians we read about, conned & press-ganged into service. It's not a simple scenario. I don't think we should be OK with this.

    I think everyone can react to those videos in their own natural way and they shouldn't be criticized for that.

    And as I've said a number of times, I'm not criticising and its reductive and dismissive to do so. I'm tryying to understand and ask people to consider that maybe, this is all a bit fúcked up and not necessarily normal to watch people die and shrug ones shoulders.

    It's ok to admit it's fúcked up, but throwing a fit and getting antagonistic or misrepresenting others is indeed more criticism than the segue I started.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    You really need to look up the meaning of strawmen argument. You've thrown out that claim a few times, completely out of context, where the only strawman argument being raised is by you. It's gaslighting of the highest order - "faux outrage" "making yourself feel superior". And on you go with more strawman arguments "The BBC and sky news do stuff...".

    Strawman argument:

    fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion

    distorts their opponent's argument by oversimplifying or exaggerating it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 668 ✭✭✭highpitcheric


    Got to keep in mind when watching such videos that at least some part of russias forces is/was composed of putins rivals.

    Protestors and inmates. Among the inmates are psychos and other problematic individuals, sure, but also some of them will have resorted to criminality due to Russian society having its wealth vaccumed up the mafia pyramid which putin and his goons are sat atop. So indirect victims of putin in a sense.

    Political rivals, protestors and the coerced underclass no hopers. Are somewhere in those ranks dying. Cant be sure if youre watching one or not.

    Bailey had a borderline personality" based on "narcissism, psycho-rigidity, violence, impulsiveness, egocentricity with an intolerance to frustration and a great need for recognition".

    • Psychiatrist Jean Michel Masson and psychologist Katy Lorenzo-Regreny


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭rogber


    Quote one example of "pro Russian propaganda".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭rogber


    There's a big difference between BBC or whoever showing pictures of war to emphasize how horrific it is and someone on boards with a hard-on screaming "look at this one lads, watch him get turned into jelly erm no i mean mince meat hahaha".

    The first serves an informative purpose, the second shows a pathological pleasure in demonizing another group and watching them suffer and a total absence of normal human sensitivity



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Thank God America did, thank God the Brits did early on.


    Europe is largely tapped out of weaponry to supply them and maintain their own largely threadbare armies.


    Ukraine should have said to America, thank you but we are innundated with weapons from European States.

    We should be 2 years in to a massive military armaments plan across Europe.


    The violence is still only starting on its latest cycle in the middle east and the arch of instability around Europe is growing.


    Russia will lose but it may win in that it holds what it has, its economy in tatters and only America left willing to project force against dictatorships and lunatics.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,852 ✭✭✭zv2


    There are a few caveats concerning these videos of killed Russians.

    1. It is a win for Ukraine and most people on this thread want Ukraine to win. Unfortunately that means killing lots of Russians. Dead Russians = winning. Sad but true.
    2. Russia's war crimes has stirred up great anger and even a desire for vengeance. There is a limit to what people will tolerate.

    None of this justifies jubilation at their deaths but one has to look at this in context. And the context is Russian brutality and mass murder. Murder that has been going on since Russia came into existence. People talk about the evil west and there is a case to answer here but the difference between the west and Russia is that the general populace in the west have not been poisoned by their leader's evil while many Russians have soaked up the cruelty of their leadership. On Russian national tv they openly talk about how they should be committing atrocities against their enemies and many Russians applaud it. They have become depraved by a century of depraved leadership. A lot more could be said about this but it shows why many people say a good Russian is a dead Russian. I'm speaking very loosely here but I can't cover every exception in one post. At any rate, I'm not justifying or condemning the posting of such videos.

    It looks like history is starting up again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭rogber


    You talked about a video recently of Russians being turned into paste then corrected yourself to say it was more like meat, or something similar to that. Practically creaming yourself with excitement and you were called out on it by other posters too. You know what I'm talking about, but I really don't have the patience to trawl back through your mountain of daily messages to find the exact wording



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    All of which is fine and don't disagree about the hardening of opinions when it comes to Russia's actions and how they're prosecuting or viewing this conflict ... the country seems a bit of a lost cause really .. but my very original consideration was about how we consume the thing.

    For the first time in human history, we can basically watch war & moments of death in real-time as pure "voyeurs" and as we conduct our daily lives, all thanks to the weirdly dissociative effect caused from watching drone footage and the like. Which probably enables the kind of glib "haha, look at 'em fly" crowing going on, regardless of Russia's provable barbarism. It's like something from Black Mirror that one checks one's emails, watches a bunch of soldiers die as they're thrown from their truck, then go back to work.

    God knows I grew up with plenty of pearl-clutching articles about how video games were corrupting our youth, the violence therein somehow a seed that'd cause the downfall of society. It never happened of course, but funny that a world of depravity can be consumed, in private, thanks to the connectivity of our smart phones, and there's less ... interrogation about how healthy that is for us.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,852 ✭✭✭zv2


    Yes, but isn't it more than voyeurism? My point is that there is a whole range of emotions here. This war has stirred up great outrage in people. When I see the Russians getting blasted like this I often wonder if they are the Orcs that cut genitals off with a boxcutter or some poor wretch who was just thrown into the war as cannon fodder. I can't tell so I'm conflicted about how I feel about it. But the more Russians commit war crimes the more people are inclined to see them as Orcs.

    But to address your main point - that such videos have a bad effect on the psyche and on society - I'm afraid you are right. Ultimately it is bad. The internet is every bit as bad for the world as television was. We'd be far better off if we had none of them.

    @pixelburp "God knows I grew up with plenty of pearl-clutching articles about how video games were corrupting our youth, the violence therein somehow a seed that'd cause the downfall of society. It never happened of course"

    But it has! Civilization has all but morally and spiritually collapsed. We still have transport, work and a tax system etc, but these are only the physical facade of civilization. Inwardly the world is becoming spiritually impoverished.

    It looks like history is starting up again.



This discussion has been closed.
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