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March 8th - What’s your vote? **Mod Note In Post #677**

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,822 ✭✭✭✭EmmetSpiceland


    Voting YES for both

    Judge Marie Baker is on with Pat Kenny at the moment.

    Doing an excellent job at dispelling the nonsense and answering all the questions around what a durable relationship is and how a Yes vote won’t open the door to men bringing in multiple wives.

    Well worth a listen back for those who are governed by fear and voting No as a result.

    EmmetSpiceland: Oft imitated but never bettered.

    “It is not blood that makes you Irish but a willingness to be part of the Irish nation” - Thomas Davis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 393 ✭✭KevMayo88


    Voting NO for both

    Those who are "governed by fear" are voting NO? What an arrogant and dismissive assessment. Is there anyone "governed by fear" who is voting YES?


    If the family referendum is passed and if a mistress has her lover die, then there is absolutely nothing from stopping her from making a claim against her lovers' estate at the expense of his lawful wife and family, as this mistress would now be able to suggest that she and he were engaged in a "durable relationship", and that because of his death, she too is now due financial support and recommpense.

    Likewise, Minister Neal Richmond clearly stated to Clare Brock on The Tonight Show that the "durable relationship" amendment will facilite even more immigration with assylum seekers and international protection applicants to have greater rights on bringing over other family members- an astonishing admission.

    As for the care referendum- it is truely astonishing that an amendment that seeks to literally absolve the state of its responsibilities in terms of supports for carerers and the disabled, infirm and ill is being wholly endorsed by virtually all parties claiming to be on the left.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,338 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    Voting YES for both

    The family amendment will include this:

    Proposed to change Article 41.3.1° by deleting text shown with line through it:

    “The State pledges itself to guard with special care the institution of Marriage, on which the Family is founded, and to protect it against attack.”

    So it states that there is guarding for marriage as an institution. How does this mean that a mistress can make a claim against her lover's estate?


    Regarding the care amendment - currently there is nothing in the constitution about carers and the disabled. Currently there is nothing forcing the government to do anything extra, but there is also nothing preventing them from doing less. Adding the new clause will, in my view, do literally nothing to the benefit of disabled people or carers. It will also not, in my view, do anything to the detriment of disabled people or carers. But it will remove outdated language about women in the home, so that's a plus.

    Note - just to be clear: My son has an intellectual disability and his mother is a carer, so we're well versed in what the state does and doesn't do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,121 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    If it takes a judge to come on a radio show to try to explain in clear language WTF this durable relationship issue is, well that's just not good enough for me. Why has it taken up until two days prior to voting day to try and explain it? I am fed up of the vagueness of it all, it makes me think (probably wrongly) that there is a massive hidden agenda here somehow.

    Clarity is everything when voting to change the Constitution IMV. No No here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,402 ✭✭✭✭suvigirl


    Voting YES for both

    Because it only matters what the judges think.

    Why does it matter to people who will never have to decide on whether something is a durable relationship or not?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,690 ✭✭✭✭vectra


    Voting NO for both

    Absolute NO and NO from my house



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 393 ✭✭KevMayo88


    Voting NO for both

    How many times last night was Micheal Martin asked during the debate what constitutes a "durable relationship"- every single time, he evaded and deflected. That's just not good enough. The "durable relationship" is the key tenet of the amendment change. It's not acceptable to appear on a debate and refuse to clarify what is meant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭Sconsey


    I found it unacceptable that Prime Time introduced Maria Steen as a 'stay at home mother' instead of a key member of the iona institute. May as well have introduced Micheal as a 'former school teacher'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 181 ✭✭tarvis


    Certain peoples views are guaranteed to trigger some voters to vote the opposite way- - not an accidental invite. .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,854 ✭✭✭Jack Daw


    Yes, If the church and church supporting institutions stayed out of this you'd be more likely to get a No vote winning.Government are delighted the church and the likes of Iona stuck their oar in as they know if if the church argued water as wet some people would disagree with them just because it's the church.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,370 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    I am voting YES (care amendment)

    Maria Steen and Iona should not be advocates in TV debates.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 461 ✭✭HerrKapitan


    Voting YES for both

    Thought Martin did very well. Didnt get drawn into the far right efforts to muddy opinion on durable relationships. Its still a YES YES from me.

    Imagine voting the same as Ireland First and Aontu. Yuck.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 393 ✭✭KevMayo88


    Voting NO for both

    Imagine voting the same as Varadkar, Roderic O'Gorman and Micheal Martin. Yuck.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,338 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    Voting YES for both

    Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and the Greens won 85 seats (53% of seats) and 50.2% of the popular vote in the 2020 general election. They currently poll around 41% combined.

    Aontú won 1 seat (0.625%) and 1.9% of the popular vote in the 2020 general election. They currently poll between 1 and 3%. Ireland First don't register anywhere.

    Regardless of your own beliefs, you have to acknowledge that the main government parties are supported by a large chunk of Irish society. The same can't be said for the likes of Aontú, Ireland First, the national party or any of these other fringe groups.

    I know which I think is yuck.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 393 ✭✭KevMayo88


    Voting NO for both

    I was referring to your previous comment where you alluded to that voting in the referendums in the same way as how Ireland First and Aontu were advocating (i.e. a No/No vote) was somehow "yuck". I'm voting No/No, not because I agree or support any party or group, but because these referendums are braindead nonsense to begin with.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 393 ✭✭KevMayo88


    Voting NO for both

    You're right. The only people who should be allowed on TV debates are people and groups who you agree with.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Voting NO for both

    Agreed. Just because something isn't right doesn't mean you fix it with garbage. Hopefully this will be voted no on both counts, and sent back to the drawing board.

    Imagine a scenario in work or at home where you identify something that needs to be fixed, and say ah we'll just go with this effort which isn't great but sure it'll do. Why not fix it properly?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,406 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Imagine voting the same as Gript, The Catholic Church, the Iona Institute, The Burke Family and all the 'true Irish patriot' crowd. 'yuck'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    Voting NO for both

    After giving the proposed changes careful consideration I have decided on No to both amendments.The wording is vague and and the unintended consequences of the new wording could swamp the courts for years, the real beneficiaries of these changes would be the legal profession and other vested interest groups.

    The government needs to tackle the pressing issues like housing,health,transport, tourism,and the immigration mess we currently have.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,234 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Voting YES for both

    Oh absolutely it is, but it's at least tongue in cheek unlike Steen trying to use islamophobia on prime time last night to scare the good catholics into voting no in case those muslims come over here with their multiple wives and try to [insert thing they're scared of here]

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    Voting NO for both

    Martin was a teacher for less than a year,a more accurate description for Micheal should be failed health minister and a cabinet member of a government that bankrupted the country, not to mention his abysmal handling of the Lisbon Treaty.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    Voting NO for both

    Good catholics me hole, the catholic church have no influence on 95% of the population, people may well reject these amendments solely because the wording is rubbish.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,234 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Voting YES for both

    Its amazing that the people who are voting no because 'it doesn't change anything' and 'is a waste of time' are on the same side as the people who are voting no because it leaves the door open for someone's illegitimate mistress to come in and destroy families...

    It's the Schrodinger's amendment, both destroys families, and has zero effect both at the same time.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭Sconsey




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,234 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Voting YES for both

    There is perfect clarity on the changes to the constitution, everyone got the exact text of the changes sent to their houses from an independent body

    If you think there's a 'hidden agenda' here, then could that possibly be? What is the Citizen Assembly trying to sneak in through the back door as part of some kind of deeper agenda?

    And how could that possibly work?

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,338 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    Voting YES for both

    I'd argue that you can tell a lot by looking at the major groupings that are lined up on either side of the argument. On one side you have all major political parties, you have a former president of Ireland, you have the National Women's Council of Ireland, you have Treoir, Family Carer's Ireland, One Family Ireland. On the No/No side you have Iona, Aontú, Ireland First and "lawyers for no" which includes Michael McDowell and other conservative voices, including members of Iona. Oh and you have the Catholic church too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    Voting NO for both

    Just reminding people of what Martin has done to this country,his new incarnation over the recent years does not impress me and does not absolve him of the damage he did in the past,I will discount anything he says just the same as many will discount Steen because she is a member of the Iona group.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,854 ✭✭✭Jack Daw


    They haven't explicitly pointed out what "durable relationship means".The yes side seem very unwilling to do this which leads people not to trust them.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,219 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    The care referendum takes the pressure off the state to support anyone "in the home". The could have worded this much better and without stoking the genuine issues that people have with it. It's not enough to say that the language is "sexist" and thats why it should be removed, if what it is being replaced with will potentially have worse practical implications.

    Why are we looking at "adding to it in future"? Why not get it right this time? It's costing millions not to get it right and at this point if it doesn't go through not getting it right means it might be decades before it's reviewed again.

    Half-a$$ed is the term I'd use.



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