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New Children's Hospital - A symbol of Ireland's scandalous and shady behavior

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Comments

  • #272
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,792 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    State awards €1bn children’s hospital contract to BAM Ireland – The Irish Times

    You have to laugh...2017 article

    The contract to build the long-awaited national children’s hospital in Dublin has been awarded – at a price €300 million more than the original budget of €650 million.

    BAM Ireland, one of the State's largest building contractors, has been selected as the preferred bidder to build the hospital for a price understood to be close to €1 billion.

    Former minister for health Leo Varadkar said funding was in place and "short of an asteroid hitting the planet", the hospital would be built by 2020.

    ..........

    Government never ever got control of the project. They still don't.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • #273
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,792 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    The new children’s hospital: what’s taking so long? – The Irish Times

    The new children’s hospital: what’s taking so long?The latest completion projection is now late 2021 or early 2022, almost 40 years after the first proposal.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • #274
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,330 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768364#Comment_121768364

    As a Dubliner I'd rather it was in Athlone, as I'd get there quicker in an emergency than I will in the 10km journey I'll face to this hospital.

    I'm nearly willing the delays to keep coming, in the hope my kids will be too old to attend by the time it actually opens.

    Mrs. DTR, the kids are sick, will you top up my leap card so I can take a dart then luas to get them to hospital.



  • #275
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,792 ✭✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    And will it be big enough?

    Will its 380 beds be enough when children’s hospital finally opens at stratospheric cost? – The Irish Times

    Facility to be among the most expensive of its kind worldwide, when Switzerland has built larger hospital in Berne for €700m.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • #276
    Flinty997
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,066 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768803#Comment_121768803

    Improvements in outcomes are not solely or mostly due to centers of excellence being centralised in one location in Dublin. That a false equivalence on many levels.

    There is a litany of issues with the NCH project starting with the Mater. A litany of manipulation. Having failed to convince anyone. You've now resorted to insults. Speaks volumes.

    Building any major project on restricted site with no room for future expansion is such poor planning.



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  • #277
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,044 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768364#Comment_121768364

    You must be taking the piss. I used to live in the Dundrum/Rathfarnham area and damn sure I would rather go to Blanch than try and get into the James area for anything.

    Greenfield site with parking or one of the worst areas of the city, nobody is choosing James. Not without a brown envelope anyway.



  • #278
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,096 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768911#Comment_121768911

    I never said anything about centres of excellence in Dublin. They are all over the country but generally focused on large teaching hospitals. It also meant a lot of treatment moved away from regional hospitals though, which was opposed. For reasons I understand for the most part, which is that the natural response of people is to assume treatment closer to home is always better. But that simply isn't true.

    Where have I resorted to insults?

    There was no perfect site. They all had drawbacks.



  • #279
    Flinty997
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,066 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768937#Comment_121768937

    You're arguing for centralisation in Dublin in one breath while giving a decentralised example on the next. A politician would be embarrassed.

    Literally no one's arguing for it to be "closer" to them.



  • #280
    Flinty997
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,066 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768888#Comment_121768888

    We know the answer that one.

    They'll say we don't have the resources to staff more beds. Guess where the resources went.



  • #281
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,471 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768926#Comment_121768926


    It has been established that the medical consultants would not work in Blanch.

    That is too far for them to travel from houses in south Dublin.

    They are a powerful lobby group.



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  • #282
    Flinty997
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,066 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769150#Comment_121769150

    How does Blanch manage to function with no consultants. Someone needs to correct their website with this information.

    What's the travel limit of a consultant. Just wondering does it exclude Beaumont for example. Perhaps we need to build all hospitals in South Dublin.



  • #283
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,471 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    I'm simply reporting what I heard.



  • #284
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,096 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768952#Comment_121768952

    I am saying that having the Leinster regional Secondary Children's Hospital and the National Tertiary Hospital with a patient pool that is 70% from the GDA should be in Dublin yes.

    Centres of Excellence are the exact opposite of decentralised care. You are just conflating centralisation with "Dublin". This is the very reason people opposed them at the time as they would have to travel further to receive care. My point originally was that polls of the population is a crappy way to decide where hospitals should be.



  • #285
    tom1ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,187 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    I thought the whole problem with the runaway cost of the NCH was because the contractor was never given a detailed scope and design drawings no?

    If this is the case then whoever were the project managers in charge should never have awarded the contract to begin with until said scope and detailed drawings were in place.



  • #286
    Kenya Dry Oats
    Posts: 24,207 ✭✭✭✭ Kenya Dry Oats


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769312#Comment_121769312

    A lot of consultants travel considerably. I’ve attended plenty of consultants who travel a fair bit in their work. It’s totally untrue that consultants must walk from the door of one hospital to another, when a cohort of them travel between counties to work in various hospitals. Nowadays with hi tech communication systems expertise can be easily shared between consultants once in a compatible time zone. Some surgeons operate Da Vinci robotic machines remotely! Medicine has come a long long way, and distance medicine is a very real concept that’s happening regularly in certain locations. It’s now an absolutely outdated notion that hospitals need to be collocated, and going forward this is going to be ever more the case.



  • #287
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,096 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768926#Comment_121768926

    I mean, right now its the same time to James' and Connolly from Rathfarnham and quicker to James' from Dundrum. This will obviously change at rush hour but its not like the M50 isn't regularly choked with traffic. But yes, southside near the M50 it is debatable.

    Nowhere is good to drive to at rush hour. In an ideal world there would be more parking, but amply parking is not the primary factor in what makes a good hospital.

    Also, and this keeps getting glossed over a lot, huge sections of people living in Dublin don't even own cars.

    I'm not ignorant of the fact the location is not ideal. But such a place did not exist.



  • #288
    Kenya Dry Oats
    Posts: 24,207 ✭✭✭✭ Kenya Dry Oats


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770266#Comment_121770266

    It seemed to be ad hoc “planning”. “We need a BIG hospital, eh er well quite a big hospital, not 100% sure quite how big”. “We need it to have a b c d e f… services” “We’ll get an architect to draw a building that might do, modern architects like glass, so there’ll be plenty of glass” “We’ll then play it by ear as requirements might change… but eh, we’ve chosen a site we can’t really expand on…never mind”



  • #289
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 30,096 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770318#Comment_121770318

    Well, I think the amount of glass is so kids have as much light as possible in their rooms.

    But, yes, by all accounts the planning was not done well and the tender going out before the spec was finalised seems like a mistake. This is where all the criticism seems fairly well deserved.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on


  • #290
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 38,111 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769433#Comment_121769433

    If the Motors forum teaches us anything, it's that the barstool is the font of all knowledge. 😁

    I'm partial to your abracadabra,

    I'm raptured by the joy of it all.



  • #291
    Flinty997
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,066 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770393#Comment_121770393

    The original idea is kids need a space that escapes them from the hospital. "Sensory and therapeutic respite" Usually a Garden. This has been mutated into roof gardens, hanging terraces, and courtyards..and lots of glass.



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  • #292
    tom1ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,187 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770393#Comment_121770393

    So who was the project management firm in charge here?



  • #293
    Flinty997
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,066 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770266#Comment_121770266

    Its large part of the problem. It's not the whole problem though. A complex design in a restricted site with existing water mains and drains. How much money did they spend on the mater proposal before redoing it all for effectively a site with all the same issues. Just a different constituency.



  • #294
    Flinty997
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,066 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770298#Comment_121770298

    I'm aware that many consultants work multiple clinics in different locations, different hospitals different days, even different counties different days.

    Just the ones in NCH can't travel far from their house apparently. Maybe they don't realise theres a Luas.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Paul on


  • #295
    tom1ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,187 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770602#Comment_121770602

    Agreed but a portion of the blame lies with whoever chose the site.

    However once the site was chosen and that decision made, who were the PM team who proceeded without a finalised scope and detailed design, and bill of quantities?



  • #296
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,403 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    spiraling costs of major public works is common enough globally, its not just an irish problem, good ould corruption helps to.....



  • #297
    tom1ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,187 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770768#Comment_121770768

    Yeah but when we do it we do it proper 😂



  • #298
    Flinty997
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,066 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121770316#Comment_121770316


    How the population of the hospital travel to the hospital is the only thing that relevant. Not how many people (who might not even have kids or ever travel to the hospital) have car.

    The argument there is no perfect solution is not a argument to pick (arguably) the worst option. "There is no perfect car... so I'm using a Rolls Royce to learn to drive in..."

    Usually driving (or travelling) against traffic, against congestion is advantageous.

    None of it matters now. At this point €2+Billion in, horse is well and truly bolted. But the cost already staggering, has just instantly increased by 30% or so. I mean just wow. 500 MILLION to finish something they say is 92% complete. I mean how is 8% costing 500 million.



  • #299
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,574 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771357#Comment_121771357

    None of it matters now. At this point €2+Billion

    Just on this point as I have seen the media report something similar 'over 2 billion'.

    The ball park not the complete figure currently sits at 2.24 billion.

    That 0.24 represents 240 million or almost quarter of a billion.

    Every 0.01 is 10 million. If it goes up 2.44, doesn't look like a big deal but that's an extra 200 million.

    These are eye watering amounts which I feel don't get the attention they deserve because they are decimalised.



  • #300
    Flinty997
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,066 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121771400#Comment_121771400

    Exactly. I mean these are staggering figures.



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  • #301
    Cyrus Gifted Karaoke
    Posts: 13,753 ✭✭✭✭ Cyrus Gifted Karaoke


    At some point in the future we'll have a tribunal (another €100+ million) into how this racket was allowed proceed.



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